Is professional networking the same thing as sales? Does the thought of that make you cringe a little?

Ramzi Marjaba, our guest in episode 307, says sales skills are some of the most important skills we as technology professions need that no one talks about. Whether you are building professional connections or searching for a job, you are running a sales cycle.

Ramzi helps us understand the role of the sales engineer and the trend in job openings over the last several years. We’ll hear about the genesis of We the Sales Engineers, how it has changed over time, and what Ramzi has learned from hosting a podcast after 300+ episodes.

Original Recording Date: 12-07-2024

Topics – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers, The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends, Sales Skills and Professional Networking, Transformation of We the Sales Engineers, An Emphasis on Practice

2:21 – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers

• Ramzi Marjaba is a returning guest and currently works as a solution specialist for a technology company.
  • In addition to this, Ramzi runs We the Sales Engineers, which began as a podcast. Over time Ramzi started creating blogs and YouTube videos – @WeTheSalesEngineers related to sales engineering. He has been coaching others who work as SEs / want to become SEs for a few years now.
  • Ramzi tells us that coaching is one of his favorite things to do, more so than being a salesperson or a sales engineer at a company.
• An SE is a sales engineer, which may also be known as a systems engineer, solution engineer, solution consultant, etc. at other companies. There are many different names for this role in our industry, but it’s a technical pre-sales role.
• We last spoke to Ramzi way back in Episode 27, which Nick missed due to sickness.
  • In that discussion Ramzi mentioned starting the We the Sales Engineers podcast because he didn’t really have a place to go to get educated on what it was like to be a sales engineer. Ramzi wanted to create resources for people getting into sales engineering profession and to build a community.
  • Ramzi tells the story of a specific customer meeting 2 years into his career as a sales engineer.
    • “Halfway through the meeting, my customer…he basically stopped me and said, ‘Ramzi, I don’t care about anything you’re showing me right now.’ And my VP was sitting there…. That was the best thing that ever happened to me because he took me aside after the call… He said, ‘Ramzi, you didn’t do any discovery.’ My immediate response to that was ‘what is discovery?’ Two years into the job and no one has ever explained to me what a discovery was. So, I went down a rabbit hole….” – Ramzi Marjaba
    • Ramzi ended up reading a number of sales books, but he wasn’t able to find many SE focused books. Demonstrating to Win had some helpful tips on discovery.
  • When speaking with other SEs inside his company, Ramzi found they were making the same mistakes.
    • Ramzi wanted to talk with SEs outside his company and learn from them, and he thought (at the time) that the one way to get them to talk to him was to say he had a podcast. So, he started a podcast.
    • “Knowing now what I didn’t know back then, I would have been able to talk to anybody without a podcast. SEs is the best community in the world from what I’ve seen. They are willing to talk to anybody to help.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the SE community
    • Ramzi contrasts the SE (who talks to others because they want to help) and the salesperson (who may expect something in return).

6:42 – The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends

• How would Ramzi define what a sales engineer is and is not?
  • Sales engineering is the process of solving a business problem with technology.
  • Sales engineers are not sales support or customer support.
    • They are partners to salespeople and to customers to understand a business problem, come up with a solution, and help the salesperson provide the best proposal for that customer.
    • Sales engineers come up with a solution and then try to show the customer why they have the best solution.
    • Ramzi says many sales engineers don’t understand that their comments through continued interactions with a customer during the sales process can add value to or take value from a deal.
• Do sales engineers have a role in the price negotiation process?
  • Ramzi says yet, but it is more indirect.
  • Sales engineers help justify the specific bill of materials as the solution and why it is uniquely differentiated from competitor or commodity solutions. They also help account managers handle objections from customers.
    • Though we might have dedicated teams for value engineering at a company, Ramzi believes part of an SE’s role is to highlight the value of a solution to a customer.
• What does Ramzi see as common entry points to sales engineering or the roles people often have before they become SEs?
  • Ramzi has seen people from post-sales support or professional services become SEs. Many come from post-sales.
  • Some people move into an SE role from the customer side and have hands on experience in specific vendor technologies. Nick and John both followed this path (IT Operations). Coming from the customer side allows you to understand what customers need and want and may be an easier transition.
  • Software developers might also transition into an SE role, but it might depend on the target market / target industry for a product.
  • “Generally speaking, if you’re a customer for an industry, you can become a vendor of that industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • In 2021 / 2022, Ramzi tells us people with seemingly unrelated jobs were becoming SEs. At the time of this recording (late 2024), hiring managers are being more selective when it comes to job candidates and their experience coming into an SE role.
• John wants to dig deeper into Ramzi’s comment about the 2021 / 2022 time frame.
  • In the 2021 / 2022 time frame money was cheap, and interest rates were very low. Many companies wanted to scale during this period, and there was a shortage of SEs. Ramzi feels like the range of people considered for sales engineering roles widened considerably.
    • Companies were more willing to take chances to hire people as sales engineers. Some of these choices paid off, while others did not.
  • If we fast forward to the more recent pass, money is more expensive, and many experienced SEs have been laid off over time. Ramzi feels like companies are being more selective about the level of experience they want, and it’s an employer market rather than an employee market.
• Is Ramzi seeing an overall increase, decrease, or steadiness in terms of the number of sales engineering jobs open taking into context all the layoff events we’ve seen?
  • Ramzi says right now he sees a steady, slow increase in the number of openings for sales engineering roles. That is improved since last year at this time (almost no openings).
  • While the number of openings may be increasing, Ramzi says it is still very tough and competitive in the job market.
  • Ramzi says a couple of years ago recruiters were not able to get all the required elements in a job description and had to settle in certain areas. Now, there isn’t a need to settle for less than what a company wants / requires from a role.
  • Ramzi gives the example of being an SE focused on networking. Applying for a role focused on network security would be an easy transition, but you might not have the security experience. Someone with the same soft skills and security experience might be looked at as a stronger candidate.
  • “It’s just harder to move jobs right now. If you’re in a job and you’re secure, be thankful.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • Jon emphasizes the number of people out of work in specific areas due to layoffs making the job market more competitive right now.
  • “It’s not just the people who are out of a job who are looking for a job. If someone’s at Palo Alto, and Fortinet really wants them, they will go after them. So, you’re not just competing against…other people who were laid off. You’re competing against people with a job. And it’s always easier to get a job when you already have one…. Just because it’s not a good time doesn’t mean you don’t apply or you don’t try.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • Is the current job market not a good environment for those adjacent to the SE role to try and move to it?
    • Ramzi says there’s not a specific good time to make a move into an SE role. If it is what you want, you still try it.
  • Ramzi landed his role as an SE in a not-so-great market because a vendor wanted to gain a relationship with a specific company. Ramzi had the network of professional connections this vendor wanted at the time and got the job.

14:49 – Sales Skills and Professional Networking

• “Resumes don’t get you jobs. People do. So, if you’re interested in becoming an SE or interested in changing jobs, whatever job it is, start networking. Dig your well now before you need it. Reach out to your network, other people who are in the same industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • If you want to break into sales engineering, reach out to sales engineers, salespeople, or people who work in customer success to have conversations.
• “I really hate to admit this from the bottom of my heart. Sales is one of the most important skills that people need and no one ever talks about…. The sales skill is something you use in every day of your life, and the process of getting a job is a sales cycle. It’s a sales job. You’re the product. You’re the salesperson. You’re trying to sell yourself to the customers. How do you sell yourself to the customers? Well, the first thing you need to do is find the lead.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on job search as a sales cycle
  • Leads are other people who can refer you for a job.
  • Throughout the interview process you need to showcase your value (i.e. the value of the product – you) and not just restate your job description.
    • For example, what was the impact of closing tickets for your company? Did you close them faster or develop a process for your team to close them faster?
    • Think about how you can speak to your experience in a way that differentiates you from the competition.
    • “Sales is the thing that you have to do to actually get the job.” – Ramzi Marjaba
• Nick mentions networking with people can take many forms – reaching out to someone on LinkedIn, reaching out to people who have a podcast or YouTube channel on social media to speak to them 1-1, going to a meetup group (in-person or remote). Is networking me selling me or just me building connections?
  • Ramzi doesn’t see a real difference between the two.
  • Nick says professional networking is about connecting with others to get to learn from them and help them if you can.
  • John mentions there is a selfish motivation that can come across in all of this – showing up so someone can help you vs. showing up to build a relationship.
  • Ramzi says this is what sales in its truest form is supposed to be.
  • “I’m not meeting with you to sell you something. I’m meeting with you to see if I can help you with anything. If I can help you with anything, then I’m happy to sell you something, and…I’m happy to get paid for the services I have helped you with.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on sales in its truest form
  • Ramzi gives the example of wanting to get a job as an SE. Suppose you see John posting helpful content about it and decide to reach out to him. You could send him a message, mention you find his content interesting, and ask for a few minutes to learn from him 1-1.
    • Ramzi says you can ask someone for a 15-minute conversation, and if they say no, they say no.
    • If you can offer the person help, that is a great thing too. You can easily offer to introduce them to people who might be interesting.
    • “If you reach out to people with the expectation that they owe you something generally speaking it’s going to show in the message.” – Ramzi Marjaba
    • Ramzi gives the example of SDRs (sales development representatives) who send 10,000 e-mails per day in some cases. When these people send e-mails asking for things from people they are often ignored. E-mails that show some helpfulness might not be ignored.
    • Even when you’re trying to network with people, not everyone is going to respond. Make sure you DO NOT SPAM people.
    • Ramzi likes to coach people and loves finding leads. But he also knows not everyone is going to respond.
  • John mentions the parallel between networking and selling and the need to not make someone on the other end feel obligated to do something or buy a specific product. It’s ok to ask for a favor when you reach out to someone.
    • “That message, if the product is a connection with me…in the networking context is not that desirable…. It’s kind of like…I put no thought into what it is that you do or what you need, but would you like to talk to me and help me?” – John White, on sending the wrong message when selling or networking
  • Ramzi says in his experience, SEs are willing to help if you reach out to them as long as you’re not asking for something like a blind job referral when they don’t even know you.
    • “Here’s an example message. Hey John, I see you’re working at company Y, and I know you’re not hiring right now. But your profile seemed interesting, and I feel like I can learn a lot from you. I realize you’re busy, but if you have 5 minutes to spare, I would appreciate being able to ask you a few questions.” – Ramzi Marjaba, an example message to someone you would like to meet or network with
    • John could say no to something like that but may feel bad about it. He says it is much more likely to get a yes.
    • Ramzi says we don’t often understand that other people are busy. If someone says no to talking with you, it might be that they are busy and not that they didn’t want to help you. In the case of no response, Ramzi suggests following up and encouraging the person to let you know if they are too busy.
    • Ramzi says we should not be rude to people we want to help us because no one owes us anything.
  • John says this might feel like common sense after you’ve heard it. But it’s good practice in building the skill of gaining new acquaintances as an adult.
    • Ramzi says this is also personal. When reaching out to people because you want to get a job, getting a job is your biggest concern and sole focus. But that won’t be the sole focus and priority of other people.
    • Other people’s lives do not revolve around answering us. This is the similar to sales engineering when a customer might not be answering us.
    • “Their life doesn’t revolve around you. Your life revolves around them the customer. So, when we get angry at them, we’re not thinking about them. We’re thinking about us. If you put yourself in their shoes, you will understand a little bit better, and your e-mails will be a little bit more empathetic.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the parallels of sales engineering and professional networking / job hunting
    • Ramzi mentions he has changed his mentality when people are unresponsive to messages, and it has improved the relationship with his customers. He checks in with people to see if they are ok and gives them the option to say whether they are too busy right now. This has made Ramzi’s life and the lives of his customers easier.
    • Nick mentions a book he read called Talk to Me by Dean Nelson about interviewing people and the author’s advice to put ego aside so you can focus on the person you are interviewing. Nelson would say we have to make the interview about them just like what Ramzi recommended.
• To Ramzi’s earlier point, if Nick is networking with someone and feels they have a story to share on the podcast, he is 100% selling them on the idea of being a guest.
  • “Everything’s a sales pitch. A promotion is a sales pitch…. I studied engineering so I don’t have to talk to people. Since I’ve been in sales, I’ve realized that if I didn’t have any sales skills, I would have failed at my job miserably….even as an engineer.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • John felt like his lack of sales skills impeded his career in IT Operations. Because John didn’t know what was important to his boss, he could not pitch his ideas for IT projects in the context of what was important to his boss.
  • It’s a similar scenario if you don’t know what is important to a customer. You need to understand what is important to them and how they measure success.
  • In the context of networking, some people view a successful life lived as having a certain percentage of their time spent helping people. Knowing this about someone allows you to present that person with an opportunity to succeed. John didn’t understand this until he was taught sales skills.

28:22 – Transformation of We the Sales Engineers

• How has Ramzi’s podcast and We the Sales Engineers as an entity evolved over time?
  • Ramzi says the podcast has been great. He has over 350 episodes now.
  • “For the first 200 episodes, I felt like…I was learning a lot. And then it started to dwindle. The last 150 episodes were tough for me…. I got to a point where after like 350 episodes I got bored.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • Ramzi kept going with the podcast for the last 150 episodes because he was getting messages from people saying the content was helpful.
  • At some point the podcast didn’t feel authentic for Ramzi. It was hard to show any enthusiasm. Ramzi is a pretty expressive person and doesn’t want to fake things.
  • After 350 episodes Ramzi decided to take a break.
  • “For the last 150 episodes I did it for the audience so they can learn. From now on, I want to do it for me as well. So I’m reaching out to people I never would have talked to before, and they are a little bit outside my domain.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • Ramzi gives the example of reaching out to someone in procurement to have as a guest on the podcast. Note that Ramzi had to help this person understand why their perspective would be relevant to the sales engineer audience. In doing this, Ramzi learned a lot.
  • Ramzi is interested in talking to SE leaders about advanced topics like whether sales engineers should be part of the services department or the sales department.
  • The discussions Ramzi has are for learning but also for debating (a method which also helps Ramzi learn).
  • Ramzi plans to do 12 episodes per year and move to a season-based show.
  • Sometimes the medium makes it hard to understand a concept. For example, Ramzi has advice to share on whiteboarding, and it’s easier to do that in video form on YouTube. Be sure to check out the We the Sales Engineers YouTube channel.
  • “I’m doing both. I’m doing the podcast where I get to talk to leaders, and I’m doing the YouTube channel where I share my expertise and my knowledge.” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • Ramzi tries to publish videos every other Friday. It’s a consistent schedule he can stick to that is easier to maintain than a weekly publishing schedule.
  • John has enjoyed watching Ramzi’s videos on whiteboarding.
    • Describing a process often requires a visual component, so switching to video makes a lot of sense here.
    • John also appreciates the fact that Ramzi did not complicate this process by trying to invest in a lot of gear / equipment up front (like building a lightboard). Nick mentions this kind of thing can be a noble obstacle as discussed in our book review of Finish by Jon Acuff in Episode 273.
    • Ramzi actually thought about making a lightboard, but he did not think it was practical to use this with a customer and didn’t want to spend a lot of money. It was instead better to use Miro for whiteboarding and collaboration with customers. Miro has a free plan anyone can use.

33:57 – An Emphasis on Practice

• How have Ramzi’s communication interactions with customers and with others changed as a result of doing the podcast?
  • Ramzi says his knowledge has expanded at a minimum.
  • Learning about negotiation through the podcast taught Ramzi quite a bit about how to communicate, for example.
  • The improvement is hard to quantify because it’s been gradual, but it has definitely changed the way he interacts with customers.
    • Ramzi says he used to think customers were always right, but sometimes that just isn’t the case. Neglecting to tell a customer they are wrong is actually hurting them.
    • Engineers do not like to have tough conversations with people, and Ramzi has learned how to do this. For example, he’s had people he disagreed with on the podcast, but they had to disagree respectfully and come to some sort of conclusion.
    • Ramzi also feels the improved communication skills from the podcast helped him get his current job.
• Nick highlights things like committing to content creation (podcasting, blogging, etc.), participating in a technical community, or contributing to GitHub as helpful behavior patterns to stand out in the job market.
  • Ramzi says this consistency is also about practice. The sales engineer might end up getting their practice only in a live customer meeting.
  • Ramzi says he listened back to the first episode we recorded together, and he couldn’t finish it. He feels like he is speaking a lot better this time with fewer filler words.
  • Nick feels like we all probably speak better now than when we first started podcasting. This also applies to interacting with others at work more effectively than we did when we first started working or we first began a job role.
• Ramzi says the practice of communicating on the podcast has helped him think about things a lot more (the why and the how of his actions as an SE). Earlier in his career this was not the case. For example:
  • Why do a demo one way vs. another
  • How to do a proof of concept
  • How to do a proof of value
• Nick says in any conversation there’s going to be something that comes back at you for which you were not prepared. Ramzi encourages us to think about why we are doing things, and it can help us adapt in the moment.
• John likes the idea of practice and review. We might not record and review the core things we do for our job to promote improvement.
  • We can get feedback from others who are in meetings with us. We can ask what went well and what did not go well to help ourselves improve.
  • Ramzi says we forget to tell the people we are going to be with that we want their feedback after a meeting, so others may only be paying attention to what they are doing.
  • Ramzi thinks of sales and sales engineering as a sport like basketball.
  • “Sales engineers…we were doing something completely different, and then we get plucked out, put in as a sales engineer…. Go play basketball against Lebron James who has been doing it for 20 years…no practice, nothing. Most SEs do not perform well, especially early on…. You were talking about watching tape, which is what they do in sports. But something else that they do in sports is practice all the time. When do we practice?” – Ramzi Marjaba
  • An SE might practice in front of a customer. They might practice a demo in advance, but it still ends up being a dry run in front of the customer.
  • Ramzi feels we as SEs often don’t practice (at all or enough) for things like:
    • Discovery calls
    • Objection handling
    • Dealing with angry customers
    • Answering tough questions
    • Working in harmony with an account manager / salesperson (especially when an SE has to work with many salespeople as part of a pooled model)
  • Ramzi mentions that many challenges of being a sales engineer could be overcome through more practice.
  • Nick feels like the mantra of more practice applies to any person that’s part of a team in corporate America.
    • At that point you’re going to share an idea to change a process or something else, and there could be a member of your team who doesn’t think it’s a good idea. You might then need to influence the team to do it the way you suggested because you feel it’s the best solution.
    • “Engineers don’t generally work on soft skills…. If we want to improve our career, we’re going to have to learn to do the soft skills.” – Ramzi Marjaba

Mentioned in the Outro

• Have you been building your professional network? Even if you haven’t, we heard some great examples for reaching out to others on LinkedIn.
  • Remember that people might not respond to us at all. It’s ok to follow up and give people an out, a chance to say they are too busy. Ramzi models this with his customers. It’s ok for others to say no.
• We talked about practice and the areas / types of tasks a sales engineer might need to practice. This can apply to tasks and activities for anyone in any role.
  • We need to practice what to do in a disaster recovery scenario or in responding a cybersecurity incident so we will perform better when these events happen.
  • We also need to practice professional networking, and though we did discuss excellent tips for doing this online, consider attending an in-person meetup group to meet new people. Check out meetup.com for any groups of interest in your area (even if not related to your work).
    • Ask people what they do for work, what they like about it, and what they are learning.
    • During the conversation you will likely get a chance to share what you do and what you would like to do in the future as well as what you would like to learn. We never know when someone we meet may offer helpful advice or introduce us to someone else who can help.
    • Network with people through the lens of trying to learn and help others.
• Did you pick up on why Ramzi did the podcast and why he will continue it in a slightly different form?
  • It’s ok for our motivations to change over time compared to when we started. Ramzi wants to keep learning, release his podcast in seasons, and talk about more interesting topics.
  • This is similar to what Amy Lewis mentioned in Episode 302 – Ending with Intention: Once a Geek Whisperer with Amy Lewis (2/2) about putting something down to pick something else up. Ramzi is focusing on his YouTube content.
• What was most interesting to you about this conversation with Ramzi? Consider rating us 5 stars and putting your answer in a review on Apple Podcasts. We would love to hear from you!

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
  • E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com
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  • Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
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• If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.