What would the job description for a mentor look like? For Dale McKay, our guest this week in episode 288, mentoring is a passion area. In fact, Nick has been blessed to have Dale as his mentor for several years.

Today, Dale McKay is a VMware consultant working with federal customers. In this discussion Dale shares his Naval experience and tech industry origins, the transition to civilian life, and a number of thoughts on the mentor / mentee relationship.

Original Recording Date: 07-10-2024

Topics – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings, Adapting to Civilian Life, Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience, A Mentor’s Job Description, Advice for the Mentee

2:08 – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings

• Dale McKay is currently a VMware consultant working through a company called Kforce. This is a fairly new opportunity for Dale, and his security clearance aligns well to working with federal customers.
  • Dale mentioned the role has been great so far, and he really enjoys interacting with customers face to face.
  • In addition to a background and experience with VMware technologies (like NSX and others), Dale has a background in networking.
• Dale grew up in Memphis, and his only path to college was through scholarship. He was a member of ROTC in high school, and since he did not get a scholarship, he enlisted in the Navy.
• In the Navy, Dale was part of the advanced electronics program, and his entry into the service came before the personal computer (PC).
  • Dale went through around 15 months of training in advanced electronics which later became something he could lean on later in his career.
  • During the 5 years Dale was in the Navy, he was part of a submarine crew (what we might call the silent service). Dale built relationships during his Naval service that last even to this day (including mention of an upcoming reunion).
  • Reflecting on his time in the Navy, Dale feels it was a great place to start and afforded him more opportunity than he would have had if he had stayed in his hometown.
• Upon enlisting in the Navy, did Dale get to choose his area of focus, or was it automatically assigned to him?
  • After signing up for the advanced electronics program intentionally, Dale did get to choose what he wanted to do after that but was told the Navy needed missile technicians.
    • Part of his studies while in the advanced electronics program would include the missile technician discipline based on the above.
  • Dale was able to get into the advanced electronics program after enlisting based on his ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) test cores.
• After 5 years in the Navy, Dale feels like he struggled for the next couple of years much like many other veterans. But, he was given some opportunities based on the skills he gained during Naval service.
• Dale’s first civilian job was a biomedical equipment field engineer.
  • He would go to hospitals and work on EKG equipment.
  • At that time, it was still acceptable to repair equipment in the field. Dale and others in the role needed to know how to repair and work with the electronic components of these devices n the field.
  • The industry later decided it was more efficient and cost optimal to send replacement EKG units to hospitals instead of trying to repair them in the field.
  • Dale feels the base understanding of electricity and electronics and has helped him grasp other technology concepts throughout his career.
• Was the interest in electronics there before Dale enlisted in the Navy? Were there any other influences to the choice to focus on electronics?
  • Dale didn’t get a chance to work on personal computers before going into the Navy because they did not yet exist, but he did work on car stereos and thinks perhaps that is the source of the interest in electronics.
  • “I didn’t even know the word career at that point. I just knew that the Navy was going to pay me money and they were going to give me a skill, and that sounded pretty cool. And I got to travel.” – Dale McKay

10:55 – Adapting to Civilian Life

• What are some of the challenges people don’t see when it comes to adapting to civilian life after military service?
  • “In the service, you are never your own master, and when you get out of the service you are your own master. So what kind of master are you going to be?” – Dale McKay
  • Dale feels like he struggled with the above a little bit after leaving the Navy, mentioning that he grew his hair and beard out as one example as a result of the freedom.
  • Dale mentions in our careers we hit a point where we wonder if the path we are on will serve us long term.
    • In this light, he says we can start to wonder if we should do things differently or have a different attitude.
  • Many people, after stepping out of the discipline of the Navy, decided they never wanted to be controlled again, for example.
    • Dale says he had his time of rebellion but recognized it was not going to be helpful to stay in that state long term, making changes to course correct.
• This reminds John of conversations he’s had in other contexts where people have left a culture and then spending time defining themselves later in opposition of that culture.
  • John says people can exit a culture and decide to take lessons learned and relationships with them, moving forward without defining themselves in relation to what they left.
  • Dale says there’s another aspect here where people can decide not to move forward and would rather regress a little bit. This is where people can get into trouble.
    • There were not the number of programs to help veterans like there are today when Dale left the Navy. People had to figure out the transition on their own.
    • Dale cites being a part of numerous programs for veterans while working for VMware such as Skillbridge. This program would provide internship opportunities for veterans at different businesses, for example.

15:15 – Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience

• John wonders what we’re doing for the youth of our country to help them develop the skills to work in roles at technology vendors (consultants, tech marketing, solution engineers, and other roles that are a bit more nuanced). There’s not a clear path into these roles through college, and it is somewhat hazy.
  • Maybe things like mentoring or some type of apprenticeship are options to get there, they are less structured than what we might see in the trades (the apprentice / journeyman / master model).
  • Dale recently read that many college age folks are choosing to pursue the trades instead of college.
  • Dale feels a lot of our youth’s way forward is to return to the trades.
    • The trades teach what we Dale might call hard skills. Someone with an electrician’s license or a good plumber can get work just about anywhere, for example. As long as someone has the demonstrated hard trade skill they are very employable.
    • A college diploma doesn’t necessarily guarantee someone a job like perhaps it once did.
  • Dale shares a mentoring story to illustrate about someone we will call Joe.
    • When Dale met Joe, it was after Joe had posted on LinkedIn about passing his first Cisco exam.
    • Dale reached out to Joe to congratulate him and established a mentoring relationship with Joe (who was 14 at the time). Previous to mentoring Joe, Dale met Joe’s parents and expressed his desire to help Joe further his Cisco expertise.
    • Dale and Joe would meet together on Saturdays to go over networking exam concepts and leverage Dale’s extensive Cisco home lab as needed.
    • Joe passed his CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate) around age 15 after working with Dale followed by his CCNP (Cisco Certified Network Professional) a year or so later.
    • When Joe turned 18, he sat for his first CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert) lab despite not passing the first attempt.
    • Joe now works as part of the Apple network engineering team, and his first job at Apple was over 6 figures (plus stock grants). Joe did not need to graduate from college to get the job, but Dale tells us Joe has taken some college courses to further his expertise since then.
    • Dale thinks the youth of our nation need to focus on developing hard, demonstrable skills that can get you good jobs.
  • If those with experience in the technology industry are not reaching back to help others coming into the industry through mentoring or some other avenue, new / potential industry entrants will be left to figure it out on their own (much like veterans had to do in the past when exiting the military).
    • “I think it’s incumbent upon us to do it. Because if we don’t, they are left to develop that on their own. And I think that that’s almost a very selfish move on our part because we have this knowledge. We have this experience that is invaluable to people like that. You can go and lay that at their feet, let them pick up and use whatever it is that they want. But at least you’ve made that effort to try and help them better themselves by utilizing your knowledge and your experience.” – Dale McKay, on a call to action for those experienced in the tech industry to help others succeed in this industry

19:09 – A Mentor’s Job Description

• What is a mentor, and what is a mentee?
  • “In my mind, a mentor does 2 things – he erects a set of guardrails for your career, but he will not let you fly over that guardrail. You may hit it. You may hit it hard, but he’s not going to let you fly over that guardrail. That’s the first thing he does. The second thing he does…that mentor is the one who shoves that mentee out so that he volunteers for something that he didn’t think he could do or he didn’t think he would be good at…and just needs that little extra shove that says, ‘yeah, that’s you. Go ahead. You can do this.’” – Dale McKay
    • Nick has been the victim of some of those shoves thanks to Dale. And they worked out great every single time.
  • When a mentor erects the guardrails for a mentee, they will in the process share a great deal of experience and knowledge.
  • The shove from behind from the mentor helps us answer those ‘what if’ questions and do things that we won’t later regret.
    • “That could have been an inflection point in your own career or in your own life. And why didn’t you do it? Because you hesitated, and if you had not hesitated, things could have been different. I’m not excluding myself from this group. I’ve had those moments. I didn’t always have someone to shove me through that open door.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in helping a mentee avoid hesitation
  • Listen to Dale’s illustration about looking through a doorway but drawing back and not going in and then what happens sometimes when you get shoved in by someone else (a mentor).
  • John summarizes the mentor’s role as providing structure and ensuring the mentee is consistently challenged.
  • Dale has worked with some of his mentees on goal setting.
    • He tells us a mentor should never set the goal for a mentee. The mentee must set the goals.
    • A mentor can help you achieve a goal by holding you accountable, but it will be up to the mentee to figure the “how” of achieving the goal.
    • If a mentee is studying for a certification and not making progress, for example, the mentor would then take action to hold the mentee accountable. Dale describes adjusting a guardrail for the mentee after investigating what the real issue is.
    • “…Adjust that guardrail based on where that issue is. Maybe it’s a family commitment. Ok, I get it. Maybe it’s hard material. Ok, I get that too. But let’s adjust that guardrail so that we still keep moving forward towards that ultimate goal of getting that cert pass.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in adjusting guardrails
• What made Dale want to mentor people in the first place?
  • Dale isn’t sure why he enjoys mentoring so much.
  • A mentor might help a mentee with something fairly general (overall career) or something very specific (i.e. based on a certain task).
  • Dale says when a mentee takes working with him seriously and he gets to see them succeed because of their hard work, it is a great feeling.
  • “I like to see people succeed, but when I know they have succeeded because of maybe that set of guardrails that I put in place and helped them steer down that path, I walk away with a good feeling knowing that I have helped them to realize something that maybe they wouldn’t have been able to realize by themselves…maybe” – Dale McKay
  • Dale emphasizes that when he mentors people, the mentees do the work. He just provides the focus guardrails to help the mentee get to where they want to go.
• What about determining whether there is a fit between mentor and mentee?
  • Dale has had mentee / mentor relationships that did not work.
  • Dale says there is a very important rule for those seeking to become a mentor – none of this applies to your immediate family.
  • Dale mentions the work of Tony Robbins and Brendon Burchard highlighting that it is extremely hard to mentor the people closest to you because they can see your flaws.
  • John says there can be emotional overtones that come along with structural conversations and holding others accountable. It’s nice to have someone at an emotional distance so it does not ruin an existing relationship.
  • “That’s one piece of advice I give all those aspiring mentors. Don’t practice this at home because your results will probably not be indicative of how good of a mentor you could actually be.” – Dale McKay

27:17 – Advice for the Mentee

• For the person needing mentorship, how can we determine if we have found a mentor who can help?
  • As a mentee, Dale says you need to ask how a specific mentor can help you. It may sound selfish, but it’s really important to consider.
  • You need an area or a focus for mentorship when looking for a mentor.
  • If looking for mentorship on career growth, seeking out someone at the same level as you doesn’t make sense. Neither does seeking out the CEO of your company.
    • “What you want to find is someone who’s already been down that journey and can show you where the pitfalls are, where the rocks are, where the easy path is. That’s what you want to get as a mentee out of that mentor…. I think it’s up to the mentee to determine what he wants out of this relationship, and he needs to communicate that to the mentor. And if the mentor is not on board with that, then you need to move on until you find one that is on board. It’s just going to be a waste of your time if the two of you aren’t going in the same direction.” – Dale McKay
• Asking yourself what you want from a mentor should in a way point you in a direction to find one. Nick hypothesizes that we don’t require a mentor who works in the same industry or discipline as we do.
  • For example, if we need advice on people management, there are lessons we can learn about being a leader regardless of whether someone is a manager in technology or outside of it. They may be specific nuances to being a manager in technology that we need to understand from a different mentor, however.
  • Dale says we need to understand the background of anyone we want to mentor us. If a possible mentor does not have experience in an area where you need help, they won’t be able to effectively guide you as a mentee.
  • “I can’t learn people management by reading books or attending seminars. I have to roll my sleeves up and do it.” – Dale McKay, on the need for a mentor with experience
  • The mentee should decide first what they want out of the relationship with a mentor. If it’s career growth, what does that mean to you? Be specific.
    • Does career growth mean getting a promotion?
    • Does career growth mean expanded knowledge?
    • Does career growth mean industry recognition?
    • Does career growth mean you want to deliver a presentation at a technology conference?
  • “As a mentor, it’s about me sharing my experience with the mentee. If I don’t have that experience, then I don’t have what that mentee needs.” – Dale McKay
    • Dale says he has had instances where he did not have the experience needed to help a mentee. In that situation, be honest, and consider pointing the mentee to someone else who could help.
  • Dale says the mentor / mentee relationship can’t just be transactional. There needs to be some kind of personal relationship between mentee and mentor.

Mentioned in the Outro

• Nick says if the mentor and mentee can develop a personal relationship and get to know one another, mentors have a way of delivering the right advice just when you need it. Dale has done this so many times for Nick!
• The match between mentor and mentee is really important. If a mentor does not have the experience you as a mentee need, they are not the right mentor!
  • Nick was paired up with Dale as part of a formal mentoring program after becoming a CTO Ambassador at VMware. Before agreeing to work together, Dale had Nick first go and speak with other mentees of Dale’s to understand what to expect and determine if it would be valuable to move forward together. Nick didn’t expect a mentor to be so focused on providing value to the mentee.

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
  • E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com
  • DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney
  • Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
• Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_