Are layoffs top of mind for you right now? Brad Pinkston is a returning guest and someone who has experienced multiple layoff events in the tech industry from different seats.

In episode 306, Brad shares the story of getting laid off from a small startup. We’ll dissect how he processed that news and eventually returned to big company life. Then, looking at layoffs from a different lens, we talk about feeling survivor’s guilt. Have you ever felt it? Is it wrong to feel it when you didn’t lose your job?

After deciding to continue as an individual contributor, Brad would later become a member of the team he had once managed. Listen closely to hear about the hardest part of that transition and whether Brad sees himself returning to people management someday.

Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024

Brad Pinkston works in technical pre-sales and is a returning guest. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with Brad, check out Episode 305.

Topics – Once Impacted by a Layoff, Examining Survivor’s Guilt, Staying Individual Contributor, Parting Thoughts

2:29 – Once Impacted by a Layoff

• How did Brad process being laid off from the 2nd startup he joined?
  • Looking back, Brad can logically see that his position really did need to be eliminated.
  • Brad likes to stay on the analytical side of his mind because emotions can easily snowball in situations like these.
  • “The startup was taking a chance on trying to create something. After months of trying to create it, it didn’t work. Maybe a bigger company could have taken me and put me in a different place, but this is startup world…. If we’re abandoning the strategy, we’re abandoning people who were hired to execute the strategy, so that’s the way that I analyzed it mentally.” – Brad Pinkston
  • The emotional processing of this event was not easy. Brad says he was worried about finances and taking care of his family among other things.
  • Brad mentions one of the worst things a manager or leader can say in a layoff situation such as this is how great someone is and that they won’t have any trouble finding a job.
    • “If I’m so great, why did you need to eliminate me as opposed to repurposing me or something like that? …That was the biggest emotional reaction I had to the entire thing…. I think that managers or people that have to deliver that news…they say that thinking that it’s going to help you be more confident, but it is not helpful at all. It is a shot to the gut emotionally, so if you’re ever in a place where you have to deliver that news, don’t say that.” – Brad Pinkston, on telling someone being laid off they won’t have trouble finding a job
  • John highlights the fact that we as humans don’t react emotionally the same way we intellectually think we should.
    • “Our emotional reactions…they just are. Whether or not it makes sense intellectually, it is what happens…. You can do all of the intellectualization that you want. That doesn’t change what the emotional reaction was.” – John White, on how reactions to situations might not make sense
    • We might feel that we have failed again or feel worse by having an emotional reaction that intellectually doesn’t make sense. A person can spiral downward quickly this way.
    • John has learned to try and give himself grace in these situations (when the emotional reaction does not make logical sense).
  • This is the only time Brad has been laid off, and he feels lucky that it’s only happened once.
    • Telling people they are going to be fine might cause an emotional reaction.
    • Looking at this differently, Brad thinks he would have been upset if the layoff had been completely impersonal and fact based. He would have been upset that they didn’t care.
    • “There’s no way to receive or deliver that news in a way that’s going to be positive. You can only control levels of bad in that scenario in my opinion.” – Brad Pinkston
  • John references the movie Up in the Air and George Clooney’s character flying around the county to fire people.
    • The way in which Clooney’s character conducted the firing seemed a little bit like emotional manipulation.
  • Brad says there is an emotional reaction to being laid off that you’re “not good enough.”
    • If you have been laid off, let your professional network know what happened. Cast a wide net, and don’t be afraid of telling people.
    • If you haven’t built a strong set of professional connections, start doing it right now. Your network is there to help if they can in times of need. Hopefully you are also giving to your network consistently.
    • “Don’t be ashamed of being laid off. It is what it is. If you haven’t been laid off or fired, just wait a few years.” – Brad Pinkston
  • John was laid off from Google as part of a reduction in force of over 11,000 people. It was a very humbling situation.
    • John tried to cope with the situation intellectually by telling himself it wasn’t personal and that it didn’t mean John was bad. But it still does not feel good to lose your job.
    • You can hear more details of what happened and how John reacted in Episode 220 – John Got Fired.

10:12 – Examining Survivor’s Guilt

• Sometimes the organization you work for has a round of layoffs, and you are not impacted.
• From where John is sitting, he sees friends working at other organizations getting laid off and feels some survivor’s guilt.
  • “I’m sitting where I’m sitting not because of how amazing I am but because of a roll of the dice, literally a roll of the dice. And that’s a difficult thing to deal with.” – John White
• Brad is very analytical and an engineer at heart. He shares the story of being someone who survived a layoff event.
  • It’s helpful if those who remain at a company after a layoff can understand the reasoning behind an organization’s decision to reduce the workforce (i.e. where the organization was going and why).
• John is seeing really good people being let go in these layoffs we’re seeing in the industry.
  • “We’re all going through seeing good friends who are really good at their jobs that are really valuable being let go from organizations…into a job market where other companies are doing the same thing….” – John White
• Brad tells us the team he was on before a restructuring event was an amazing group of engineers.
  • It’s difficult to figure out why you remain but other talented people were laid off.
  • There’s a lot of survivor’s guilt (the only term we have for it) associated with still being at a company after one of these events. We can be thankful for still having a job but still feel a sense of guilt.
  • Nick highlights how this can create an awkward feeling. What business would someone still employed have to feel bad?
    • We want to maintain relationships with people who have been impacted but might not know what to say to encourage.
• Executives have to make hard decisions for the good of the company. We’re also not saying every one of these deicisions by executives are made in the right way either.
  • Brad knows it isn’t easy for the managers and leaders who have to deliver tough news to people about being laid off.
  • When layoff events start to happen, Brad says people are in limbo, uncertain if they are getting a good call or a bad call. There is a lot of uncertainty.
  • “Even the good call…good for me…that’s not a good or a bad call for the manager calling to deliver that. It’s just another call that they’ve got to deliver, and I feel for the folks that have to deliver that message because a lot of times they’re not even part of the decision on who is going to get a good call or a bad call…. That is in a nutshell more of middle management than people realize. Even at good companies you gotta deliver bad news.” – Brad Pinkston, on not always being able to set the strategy as a middle manager but having to execute it
  • John shares the story of a manager he saw deliver tough news to an employee. In this case it was not in the middle of a layoff. The manager realized the person did not fit within what the team needed but still saw value in the person and reached out to contacts who were willing to give them a serious interview for a job better suited for the person.
  • John mentions the issue with layoffs is not enough slack in people’s networks to account for 1000 people hitting the job market in a specific geography on the same day, for example. There may not 1000 job openings right then.
    • John has tried to give to his network to the degree that he can, being open to talking with people if they need a listening ear.
    • “The is not the end of your career. This is a comma in your career. Your career is a long book, and this is…maybe not even the end of a chapter. It might be in the middle.” – John White, on guidance he would give to others right now
    • The job market is tough right now with so many tech layoffs. John heard someone make an off-handed comment about there being a lot of startups 5 years from now founded by people who were laid off. That doesn’t help anyone looking for a job right now and is yet another thing not to say to someone who has been impacted.
• Do the managers or leaders who have to execute mass layoffs also feel survivor’s guilt?
  • Brad has been lucky in that he’s never had to deliver the layoff news to someone.
  • He’s managed people out of the business and managed people into better roles.
  • Brad thinks the front and second-line managers he’s worked with have definitely felt the survivor’s guilt.
    • If Brad were in the position of needing to deliver the bad news, he feels he would be more heartbroken over having to execute something he doesn’t really want to do. This would be more painful than the eventual survivor’s guilt.
    • An individual contributor on a team that was reduced may be feeling survivor’s guilt, but they didn’t get cussed out like a manager might have after delivering bad news to someone, for example. Likely managers will first need to deal with the execution of laying people off and whatever fallout comes from different people’s reactions to that situation.
    • John says it can’t feel good to tell people you know are good at their jobs that the organization no longer needs them.
    • “That’s what’s happen right now, unfortunately…. And that’s why we’re all talking about survivor’s guilt. These are people that are significantly skilled individuals that are impacted by a decision made that was totally out of their control regardless of how they performed…. We keep going back to the same terminology because there’s nothing any easier…. That feeling…it’s hard to get past.” – Brad Pinkston
  • John doesn’t know that we have an answer for this.
    • John says when he sees announcements on LinkedIn with news of layoffs, he offers a listening ear if that’s what people need.
• While Brad was laid off from the startup, he was fortunate to not be unemployed for a long period of time. Here’s some advice Brad would offer to anyone impacted by a layoff, someone feeling survivor’s guilt, or others feeling bad about what is happening within our industry:
  • Reach out to others, and offer to be a reference if you can. Let people know you respect them and that you know they are talented individuals.
  • It is confidence building when someone reaches out and offers to be a reference / sends you some encouragement. It helps motivate people to keep going and to marshal their resources (their network, etc.).
  • Let people know you’re there to help however you can.
  • Nick says we can send people helpful resources and communicate our intent to help with the caveat that they are free to use them or lose them.
• John mentions our industry goes through swings from it being near impossible to find a job to having extreme difficulty finding people to hire, but those periods could be 2 years apart or more.
  • After being laid off from Google Cloud a couple of years ago, John saw there were many openings for sales engineers across the country.
  • It’s different being laid off at the time of this recording because there are multiple companies doing reductions in force, making it tougher for job candidates.

27:19 – Staying Individual Contributor

• Would Brad go back to people management, or is he enjoying individual contributor life too much after returning to it a few years ago?
  • Brad really enjoys what he is doing and is currently a member of the team he managed 5 years ago.
  • When Brad returned as an individual contributor to the team he had once managed, Brad would be working for someone who had once indirectly reported to him.
  • “That was the hardest thing about the transitioning back…. How do I have these conversations and be helpful with my experience but make sure that he knows that I know that it’s his team and that I respect his leadership and will follow him? That was the hardest thing that I’ve dealt with with the manager to individual contributor transition. When I joined back on the team, I had hired or recruited probably 80% of that team to come on board. So I wanted to make sure that everybody knew I’m here to be one of the team members, and I am not going to step on anybody’s toes.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor on a team you once managed
    • Even though it was a challenge to join the same team he had once managed, Brad tells us everything went very well.
  • While Brad is enjoying being an individual contributor, he would definitely go back to people management.
    • Brad feels lucky to be working with a talented team of salespeople and technical SE peers.
    • “I would say that I’m not in a rush by any means, but I do want to go back into people management. I did enjoy it. I think I’ll be much more picky with the role than I was when I transitioned to the startup. I’ll ask a lot more of those inciteful questions, John…. But I do think that the story will come full circle back to that for me…because there’s too many aspects of it that I miss.” – Brad Pinkston, on someday going back to people management
• We’ve heard from other guests that going from manager to individual contributor was about getting closer to the technology. Did Brad find himself missing that aspect of the job too?
  • For Brad, it was more about getting closer to working with customers.
  • Brad enjoyed getting back in front of customers and building customer relationships again.
    • Managers might attend customer meetings with members of their team, but it isn’t the same as when you are the front-line SE supporting the customer and own the relationship.
    • “I do believe that if you’re a good leader and you’re a good manager that you contribute more than just being another sport coat in a meeting.” – Brad Pinkston
    • Brad has loved building customer relationships and influencing customer strategies.
    • Brad can only stand behind technology he wholeheartedly believes will make a customer’s life better.
  • “That’s the thing that kind of holds me back from going into people management because you get away from that. Instead, what you’re doing is you’re investing in the people on your team and making them better. And then you see it pay off. But a lot of times when it pays off, they go on to another team. So, you don’t get to see the long-term engagement there like I’m getting to see now that I’ve been back in the role for 2 years.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor
    • John mentions he just had his first person promoted off his team (i.e. a growth opportunity this person wanted that John helped foster). Judging success by the number of people promoted off your team is a badge John will proudly wear. He agrees you don’t get to participate in that person’s success in the long term but rather just be an observer of it.
    • Brad shares the story of someone on his team years ago whose family was relocating. This person took a promotion outside the company rather than a new role internally. It was a bigger and better role for the person career wise, and Brad sees it as a bittersweet moment since the company lost top talent in the process.
    • John’s hope is that we are giving advice that is affecting people positively on this podcast.

34:37 – Parting Thoughts

• Nick tries to sum up the theme of the episode to see if that matches what John would say. What do you think?
  • Brad likes to build things and wants to make an impact. Not being able to make an impact leads to job dissatisfaction. The impact for Brad can be on the customers he serves or the team he serves as a people manager. Brad has worked for a big company, multiple startups, and is now back at a big company. He has demonstrated that someone can be successful regardless of whether they are a people manager or individual contributor at multiple companies.
  • John says even if you’re not a people manager you can still affect people’s careers in a positive way. We can mentor and experience the success of others even if it’s not as their direct manager.
• If Brad, John, and Nick didn’t enjoy the people side of what they do, likely they would not have pursued sales engineering.
  • Satisfaction can come from multiple places like…
    • Being an individual contributor working with customers
    • Mentoring others on your team
    • Impacting the people in your professional network
  • “I used to tell my team we need to impact process, pipeline, and people. Hit all 3 every day, and you’ve had a successful day.” – Brad Pinkston
    • Pipeline can mean merely generating some new interesting conversations.
    • Process means we want to be efficient in what we do.
    • “The people was always the biggest piece to me – whether my team was impacting each other, impacting a customer, or whatever it is…I think at the end of the day that’s the most important piece to me. But I’m impacting it in so many different ways…big companies, small companies, through layoffs (being part of them or being the one being laid off). The people impact is always the most important piece of it to me.” – Brad Pinkston
• If you want to follow up with Brad, you can find him on LinkedIn
  • Right now stay focused on your network. Reach out to your peers. And feel free to reach out to Brad.

Mentioned in the Outro

• If you’re looking for more support on the topic of layoffs, whether you’ve been impacted or it happens to be top of mind, check out our Layoff Resources Page. This is a curated set of our most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs, each with practical tips for listeners like you.
  • What are we missing on the topic of layoffs that you would like to hear more about? Send us an e-mail with your feedback – nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com. We would love to hear from you!
• For Brad it was about impacting the people in whatever role he was in. What is it that you like to impact the most?
  • Brad’s story is a great example of how we can make an impact in an area that’s important to us in multiple different job roles.
  • Maybe you want to impact technology architecture, clean up technical debt, impact strategy, impact a product’s long-term roadmap, or you want to impact people but never want to become a people manager.

Contact the Hosts

• The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte.
  • E-mail: nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com
  • DM us on Twitter/X @NerdJourney
  • Connect with John on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @vJourneyman
  • Connect with Nick on LinkedIn or DM him on Twitter/X @NetworkNerd_
• If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our Layoff Resources Page.