Posted on by Nick Korte

Ally and Warrior: The Loneliness of Women in Tech with Kellyn Gorman (3/3)

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | TuneIn | Youtube Music | RSS | More

Why do you think women leave careers in technology? Sometimes they are bullied, but sometimes it’s the loneliness.

This week in episode 322, Kellyn Gorman shares the story of what moved her to start Women in Tech programs in the technical community, the lessons she learned from the Microsoft community, and what it was like returning to the Oracle community after an absence. You’ll hear about diversity, equity, and inclusion programs and some of the benefits and drawbacks they can create based on the experience of Kellyn and her husband.

Even advocates and community warriors need support from others and time to recharge. Kellyn shares how she is able to achieve both to continue supporting the community she loves.

Listen closely to learn how can you foster a more inclusive community for women in tech.

Original Recording Date: 02-21-2025

Kellyn Gorman is a database professional who has worked in the technology space for 25 years better known as DBAKevlar. If you missed parts 1 and 2 of our discussion with Kellyn, check out Episode 320 and Episode 321.

Topics – A Lonely Place in Tech, Returning to the Oracle Community, Encouraging the Contributions of Women in Tech, The Backlash of DEI, Being the Messenger and Getting Support

3:31 – A Lonely Place in Tech

  • Did Kellyn’s initial struggles with public speaking and the challenges recalling her presentation topics have something to do with a lack of women attendees at the events, or was it just due to the large social setting in general?
    • “Being a woman in tech, especially a data infra specialist like I am…I’m not on the analytics side. I’m very large database. It’s a very lonely place.” – Kellyn Gorman
    • In 2011, someone Kellyn hired a woman she had previously worked with to come work with her again.
      • “I didn’t realize. We communicated differently between each other, and we had a great interaction. It was so nice to have someone else there that I could go to lunch with, that I didn’t have to worry about…. It sounds sad. I don’t want that. I want to feel the same way about guys that I work with. I love the guys. But it was different…. She was pretty much bullied out of the job, and I was angry…. This is the last woman that leaves. I had looked into the history and of the 8 women I worked with in my career, at that point 5 of them had left tech. I scheduled lunches with them, sat down and talked with them, and found out they had all left for all the same reasons when you got down to it. They had all left because of the sheer loneliness, the isolation, the lack of collaboration…and sometimes bullying. And it was just really sad. And I didn’t realize that I was often bullied, that I was often isolated and everything else. And I said, ‘we’ve got to fix this.’ So, I started doing Women in Tech programs within the Oracle community.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • Kellyn started the Women in Tech organizations for Kscope (an Oracle Developer and Technology conference) in Europe many years ago.
    • By the time Kellyn left, the women attending RMOUG went up to 22% from the former 7% because of these programs, and there were more women getting into the Oracle ACE program.
      • Kellyn would bring in different sponsors to promote women in tech. She would also get allies and other Oracle ACEs to personally promote specific women in the community and people of color.
      • “I took this stuff on head on. They’d come back and go, ‘she’s not technical.’ The women I’m talking about is now the lead speaker for AI in Oracle…. Absolutely took no prisoners. Did I get shot as the messenger? A lot! Worth it…I am Kevlar. I will be bulletproof as long as I can.” – Kellyn Gorman, on moving a community forward
      • Kellyn says the Oracle community has grown a lot. Listen to the way she describes how it once was when it came to treatment of women in tech.
      • “Now they’re more likely to be allies…. That means they’re growing too, and that’s what we want. It always has to be based on education, not on persecution…and we focus on that. And I learned that very much from the Microsoft community. The Microsoft community is much farther ahead than the Oracle community on those situations. They police their own. When somebody gets out of hand, the guys are right there behind the women going, ‘no, you will not do this. This is not good.’ They expect that equality, that inclusivity, and I think that’s really essential that you see that growth. As long as there’s growth, as long as you’re moving forward, that is extremely important. That’s kind of where I take this.” – Kellyn Gorman

7:53 – Returning to the Oracle Community

  • Kellyn has returned to the Oracle community after having to walk away from it for a little while. She is working to breathe some of the energy into it gained from being part of the Microsoft community but doesn’t feel she is quite there yet.
    • “Well, I don’t know if I’m there yet…. For women in tech, we call it the death by 1000 pin pricks. It may be death by 1000 cuts, death by 1000 small bullet dings. I am the messenger that got shot a lot…. At a certain point I stepped away from the Oracle community and was like, ‘this is not healthy. You’re taking too many hits for too many people. You need to go where you’re safe and loved. I am very safe and very loved in the Microsoft community. So, I did that…and it really was helpful.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • On the Microsoft side, Kellyn knew who paved the way for women in tech and understood the challenges involved.
    • Kellyn shares the story of returning to Oracle Cloud World after a long absence. She had not been there since 2019.
      • “…People coming up to me and giving me hugs and saying, ‘I couldn’t be where I am without you….’ I thought that no one remembered. I thought that no one cared.” – Kellyn Gorman, on returning to Oracle Cloud World
      • John mentions that he loves being judged by the people he helps.
      • Kellyn says it was lovely to know people cared about the efforts she had made during her earlier time in the Oracle community. It was an emotional moment.
    • Shortly after the conference, Kellyn was approached about speaking at the Oracle Data and Analytics Conference and Kscope. She has been confirmed as the keynote speaker for BOTH events!
      • Kellyn had submitted talks to both conferences, and they were moved up to keynotes.
      • “‘We feel that you kind of got a raw deal with Oracle, and we want to fix that.’ Those kind of approaches…you didn’t even realize people noticed the hits you were taking, you know? So that definitely has been really nice. Not only am I coming back into the Oracle community, but I’m coming back in a way that I’ve got keynotes. I have articles that are being published in a number of top magazines. I am able to contribute in a way that is very powerful…. I had this conversation the other day that they were having problems with the haters, and I said, ‘don’t ever even pull yourself down into that level. Always work up. Always stay up. Don’t ever let them pull you down.’ This allows me to go back into the Oracle community and not be pulled down by anybody, to be able to do the best that I can do and focus on that…because I was anxious about coming into the Oracle community again, anxious about the challenges and those feelings….” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Previous experiences in the Oracle community made Kellyn worry about getting into uncomfortable situations at events. A lot of events for the Oracle community may not have codes conduct or may be serving unlimited alcohol. This type of atmosphere lends itself to uncomfortable situations for women.
      • “In the Microsoft community, there are very strict code of conducts. There are very high expectations, and there are people looking out for each other. That makes a huge difference. That takes a huge weight off of people when you’re there as a woman in tech, and I would love to see that at all communities. I don’t think people understand how important that is. We’re there to learn.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • John mentions it is disappointing to hear about events with no code of conduct.
      • Kellyn mentions how proud she is of the Kscope event organizers. When she expressed the importance of a code of conduct, organizers immediately implemented it as part of the conference.
      • “We joke about it, but nobody wants the red card…that says you violated the code of conduct. DO not get a red card!” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Nick says we’re highlighting important considerations when joining a technical community. This can be approached similar to the way Kellyn looked for new jobs – approaching people on the inside to gain perspective. Get perspectives on women in tech from people in that community, ask about codes of conduct for events, etc.
      • Kellyn is also part of DevOps communities, which we didn’t get a chance to discuss.
      • Kellyn tells us she is just now getting involved with the Postgres Conference. Many people she knows from the Oracle and Microsoft communities are attending. Kellyn shares the message she had printed on some stickers as a reminder to others in the community.
      • “Assume that she is technical and capable of breathing fire. This is a saying that’s gone around the Microsoft community for a very long time. But I think we almost need little pins that say that just to keep us safe. It’s really important…. If I walk into a conference and I’m here to interact with my technical community and talk to people about tech and the only questions I receive are ‘how is your husband? Are you still living on the floating home? How are your kids?’ If I just get that over and over and over again, I wonder why I attended an event. This is with me speaking this has happened. So, I know it’s happening to other women, especially women that may be younger than me.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • Kellyn has given the keynote at an event being only 1 of 3 women at the entire event. She later attended a Girl Develop It event that had all women and only 1 man in attendance.
      • “It’s really interesting how the events are changed and how the interactions are and everything when you change up how inclusive or how different the attendance is for the people that are there.” – Kellyn Gorman, speaking of her experience at different community events

15:25 – Encouraging the Contributions of Women in Tech

  • This change up in inclusivity comes from leaders and board members of the community in question. Should someone consider speaking with those people before they join a community?
    • Even for local events, the board members for specific communities / user groups will often say they wanted more women speakers, but even those women who could have given a talk didn’t submit anything.
    • Kellyn shares a story of approaching different women to be co-authors on an Oracle Enterprise Manager book.
    • “I approached a couple different women that I really wanted on the book that really knew their stuff. And they were like, ‘well, let me think on it.’ And then they kept coming back, and they were like, ‘well, I want to make sure that I can do this.’ They wanted to make sure they were 110% sure they could do it; they wanted to make sure they had everything. I had guys who barely knew how to spell Enterprise Manager, and they’re like, ‘I can do it.’ It was insane…. It’s so important for women in tech and anywhere really to stop being so hard on themselves and really jump in. You’ll figure it out later. The women that do that really do as well or better than the guys around them. You gotta stop worrying so much.” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Kellyn feels her brain is wired more like many of the guys who had the attitude expressed above – jump in and figure things out along the way. Most women are not wired this way. They want to know they can contribute, they can succeed, and that they will not let anyone down in the process.
    • Kellyn says people don’t often encourage women not to worry so much. People often second guess women, and women are taught to second-guess themselves from very early on.
      • Take the example of a young boy bothering a young girl and the girl being told he probably likes her and that she misunderstood. Kellyn remembers her daughter coming home describing the same situation. It wasn’t that the little boy liked her daughter. It was bullying.
      • “To break ourselves out of that mold and just say , ‘I’m going to do this, and I’m not going to care what anybody else thinks’ is very hard…. I just learned really early on that most people are full of it and that I shouldn’t listen to them.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • John mentions the behavior of bullying is not an acceptable output regardless of what motivations might be behind it.
  • John likes Kellyn’s call out of differences in personalities such as the hesitance in committing to co-authoring a book due to a feeling of unworthiness. This is similar when men and women apply for jobs.
    • “A lot of times women will look at a list of skills that are being looked for or responsibilities and say…‘I’m missing two out of the fourteen, so I’m not going to apply….’ Some men will go, ‘well, I have two out of those fourteen. I’m probably the top candidate.’” – John White
    • Kellyn is proud of men for confidence but wants more women to have that same level of confidence. She has helped other women negotiate severance packages, job level classifications, and other things.
    • “Women are really good, by the way, at negotiating for other women. They should always bring another woman in because…we will fight to the death for each other…. People say we’re not as good at negotiating for ourselves. We are very good at negotiating for each other, and I do think we just need to talk it through….” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Kellyn says women are told not to be bossy or brazen, and it hurts them in the real world.
    • “But I also think a lot of women…they don’t submit talks because they don’t think anybody wants to hear what they’ve got to say. And a lot of women have a lot to contribute.” – Kellyn Gorman

20:23 – The Backlash of DEI

  • John talks about a book he read by Alison Fragale in which the author speaks to behaviors in the corporate world which are viewed as positive for men but negative for women. While this certainly needs to change, the book covers some ideas for mitigating this in the meantime.
  • Kellyn and her husband have worked together 4 times in total and have a unique working relationship. At Microsoft, Kellyn and her husband worked in the same role and on the same team. They have even served on the same boards together.
    • The two of them have even written e-mails for each other to see what would happen.
    • “…Something that was a little shocking to him was how he could say things, but I couldn’t. There were other times where he would know I was going to do better with some people. There were other times where I would be like, ‘you need Tim. You need to send Tim in. These guys will do better with Tim.’ There was also these challenges of recognizing that DEI made me look a little better than him…. My husband can’t go to his boss and go, ‘I need an ally. I need sponsorship to get my raise.’ I would automatically be given it. There are these challenges, these hard conversations that we have to have….” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Kellyn left companies making more money than her husband was at times because it might have looked better to give raises or equity to a woman. She reminds us it is important to push to have uncomfortable conversations about these types of situations (even if no one wants to have them).
  • Based on what we have discussed so far, is Kellyn discounting herself in this scenario?
    • No.
    • "The truth was I would be negotiating for myself, and then I would have a boss come in going, “women are bad at negotiating for themselves. I need to back Kellyn up.’ I was a win-win every time.” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Kellyn shares the story of when HR at a specific company challenged her salary.
      • “And I hadn’t thought about this beforehand. It just popped out of my head. I said, ‘I feel that if I didn’t stick to my guns, I’d be letting down women in tech everywhere. Best response I could have ever said! Nobody asked about my salary again…. At the same time, my upcoming boss came back and said, ‘Kellyn earned that salary. She should be getting that salary, and no one should be asking her about that salary.’ He was there to be my ally.” – Kellyn Gorman, in response to HR questioning her salary and an example of her boss as an ally
    • Kellyn shares a different scenario related to promotions when her spouse was given a new title at a higher job level but she was not. She had been doing the job for 1.5 years but was not given a promotion despite being promised it.
      • A mentor suggested Kellyn hold her boss accountable for this, and Kellyn told her boss she earned it and needed to see the promotion within a year’s time. She got it, and her boss was an ally. Kellyn and her spouse were then back to a level playing field.
    • Stock awards are a little bit different according to Kellyn.
      • “It happened most of the time with nobody in the room, and it just looked cooler to give it to the girl. That’s when the inequality came out. If you didn’t have those DEI programs though, I think it would have been the opposite way…. That’s my partner down there and my equal, and he’s actually been in tech longer than me. If I had won it one year and then he won it the next, that would have been one thing. But after 5 years that they kept giving it to me… nope. I felt that was unfair.” – Kellyn Gorman, on stock grants
      • John says in the case of stock grants even our advocates may not been in the room when awards are discussed and given.
      • “They’re not small awards. But you recognize the pattern, and again…AuDHD…we see patterns. You saw who was being awarded what and you recognized it was a great achievement of understanding DEI, but there’s also that backlash of DEI. If you don’t have honest conversations with yourself saying, ‘did I award this because DEI looks cool? Or did I award this because I have somebody who deserved this?’ That’s extremely important to still follow through and keep yourself accountable.” – Kellyn Gorman

26:44 – Being the Messenger and Getting Support

  • We heard earlier that Kellyn lost the fear of putting herself into scenarios no one ever wanted. Did she also lose the fear of uncomfortable conversations at some point? Was it a progression like the improvement in her public speaking?
    • Kellyn says this is part of her personality. Her mother used to say, “Kellyn tells me things I don’t want to know.”
    • “Even those in the Microsoft community are aware that I’m brought into difficult conversations. I am the messenger…. I was the messenger in the Oracle community that they didn’t want. In the Microsoft community I’m the one people bring in…. I am the equalizer. It’s weird.” – Kellyn Gorman
    • John points out an element of self-awareness in Kellyn. She knows when she needs to care for herself and cannot be the advocate all the time.
      • “Sometimes the Kevlar needs to be repaired.” – John White
      • Having hard conversations and facing anxiety / fear is a skill. Those people who are surer of themselves and have confidence (like what Kellyn described as being willing to figure things out) are better suited to step into the line of fire and advocate for others.
    • Kellyn says she has received tremendous community support in the role of equalizer / warrior.
    • Kellyn also receives support from her mentees, often becoming close friends with them. Kellyn gets up early On Thursdays to mentor someone in another country, for example.
      • “Those people are also often my roommates at different events. We’re friends as well.” – Kellyn Gorman, on support from her mentees
    • Kellyn remembers forming “pods” with other women in the Oracle community across the country because there were so few of them. They could communicate and share with each other.
      • “This was a bad day. I just need somebody to hear me. Those are important friendships to have. Those are important support structures to have. And I think that’s what women in tech more than anything will have. So, when I say that I need support…I have that. I have a lot of friends. I have a lot of allies. I have a lot of support people. And that gives me strength. I’m also naturally kind of a loaner too.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • When Kellyn is overstimulated by too much noise, she can put on her Apple AirPods to block out all noise. When she needs time to recharge, most people know it.
      • While attending events, Kellyn takes time for self-care. She might need to do that instead of attending an evening event.
      • “I have no guilt about taking care of myself and doing what I need, and when other people need me, I make sure I have those reserves that I can be there. I don’t think there’s ever been a time where I haven’t been able to give of myself what other people need because I am very big about making sure I do the self-care that I need, that I have the reserves that I need, and do step back. I would not have signed on to go back into the Oracle community if I didn’t feel that I was capable of it and it was going to disturb my peace.” – Kellyn Gorman
  • By thinking through situations from someone else’s perspective, Kellyn also has to help her friends set boundaries to care for themselves.
    • “I was taught very on to think with my head, feel with my heart, say what I mean…don’t get any of them confused. Keep them compartmentalized, especially when you’re trying to make decisions…. If you’re angry at somebody there’s a reason you’re angry. Really think it through and figure out why you feel what you feel. I think that’s extremely essential. Don’t get them all meshed up together and say things that really aren’t the reason for that. You have to take some time and figure it out. I’m not one to say something that I don’t mean. It just doesn’t happen with me. I will step back and work through things. I have to. But it has served me well so far.” – Kellyn Gorman
    • Kellyn thinks about what she wants to achieve, what the other person wants to achieve, and how they can move forward together. This strategy has worked very well over the years.
  • Parting thoughts
    • Kellyn says it’s been incredible to fall into a technologist role accidentally. Today, these kinds of opportunities are rare.
      • We have people coming out of school with Data Science degrees who cannot get data analyst roles.
      • Kellyn was doing desktop support, and someone suggested they make her a DBA. She would later work for Oracle and Microsoft.
      • The opportunities Kellyn has received are thanks to support and allyship from others.
      • “Even though I give myself credit for self-care and working hard and doing all these things, there’s been people behind me the entire way. I could not have done it by myself. It absolutely takes a village, and I try to give that to other people. I want other people to have the things that I have had. I think that’s essential for us to continue technology in a path that’s healthy.” – Kellyn Gorman
      • Kellyn wants to make sure we use AI the right way. She sees entry-level technologists and wonders how they will gain the level of experience that she has.
      • Kellyn has to address the University of Washington in support of tech careers, and sometimes she isn’t sure what her approach will be or the recommendations she will make to those looking to get into the field at this moment in time.
    • If you want to follow up on this conversation with Kellyn, check out:

Mentioned in the Outro

Contact the Hosts

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *