Welcome to episode 207 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode Nick shares his experience going through two different interview processes over the last year.

Original Recording Date: 01-14-2023

Topics – A Personal Slant to the Career Foundations Series, Interview Process # 1 – External Company, Interview Process # 2 – An Internal Role, Resources Nick Leveraged

1:02 – A Personal Slant to the Career Foundations Series

• We are doing a series on the foundations of career progression.
  • In Episode 203 we talked about resumes, their structure, how to showcase your accomplishments, and how you can keep them current.
  • In Episode 204 we talked about what type of reflection needs to be done as before searching for jobs, places and methods to search for jobs, research needed for each job listing, applying for jobs, and ways you can let jobs come to you.
  • In Episode 205 we did a part 1 on job interviews. We talked through the goal of an interview, how to prepare, and some of the types of interviews such as HR screens and first interviews with a hiring manager.
  • In Episode 206 we continued discussions on interviews with the technical / team member screening process, executive screening, the process of an offer, and what happens if there are delays.
• This week it gets personal. Nick wanted to share his experience going through two different interview processes over the last year – the processes, the steps in the processes, what he did to prepare for the experience, what he learned as a result, and how it might compare with / align to our previous discussions.
• Before any of this happened…
  • Nick wasn’t really looking around for a new job.
  • Nick had not updated his resume since 2017.
  • From a LinkedIn standpoint, Nick had kept it pretty well up to date, trying to post there at least once per week (often times about the podcast or something career related).

2:19 – Interview Process # 1 – External Company

• The first process was with a company outside Nick’s current employer.
• The process started with a message from a recruiter stating she felt Nick would be a good fit for a specific job (a sales engineering job at another company).
  • Nick chose not to apply because it did not seem interesting, but he did ask the recruiter what that person liked about working for this specific company. The recruiter was kind enough to provide the answer, and Nick appreciated the person sharing.
  • Some time passed, and the same recruiter sent Nick a different job description. And it was something that wasn’t really on Nick’s radar as even a possibility. It was a role that was very much community facing, involved a technical specialty, and it would involve doing some very different things than Nick does today.
    • Nick does not think if he had seen this job posting that he would have considered himself qualified, and he’s not sure he would have considered applying.
  • Nick thought this role sounded pretty interesting and exciting, and as a result he was willing to take some time to learn more about the role. The first recruiter passed Nick on to a second recruiter to have a brief discussion (what we might call a recruiter screening).
• The second recruiter was able to tell Nick more about the role and share some additional insight on the company.
  • Nick was able to learn about company benefits and some context about the role that might not be in the job description.
  • He was also able to ask some questions. When Nick asked the recruiter why she thought he might be a good fit for this specific role, she pointed to his experience on the podcast, feeling Nick would not have an issue going and talking with people out in the community.
  • It was one of those times where someone else saw relatable experience that Nick could not see.
  • During the conversation the recruiter asked what it would take to get Nick to this company were he to successfully go through the interview process. At that point he provided a compensation range (which the recruiter confirmed was realistic). This is a good checkpoint to ensure Nick would not be potentially going through the process and having a mismatch in expected compensation for the role.
  • Nick also mentioned he was not quite sure he wanted to apply just yet. Maybe sharing an expected compensation range despite not knowing if he was going to apply was his way of trying to short circuit the process if he did apply.
  • The recruiter mentioned she understood Nick was unsure about applying but said the hiring manager was interested in speaking with him. She suggested a 30 minute discussion with the hiring manager, and then Nick could decide if he wanted to apply. He agreed to speak to the hiring manager.
• The next step was the call with the hiring manager.
  • There were two open positions under this hiring manager.
    • One was a community manager role similar to what Nic Tolstoshev described in Episode 62 and Episode 63.
    • The second was community facing and sort of an evangelist type role. It was very technical and would be a chance for Nick to get extremely deep in an area where he is more of a generalist today and learn a lot of new things.
  • The hiring manager asked Nick about his skills and the things he was interested in doing.
  • After about 7-10 minutes the hiring manager suggested Nick have a conversation with someone who had been working for him in one of the role to determine which role might fit Nick best. And then the hiring manager opened up the floor for questions.
  • If you had 20 minutes with someone just for questions, how many questions would you have ready? Nick filled up the entire rest of the meeting asking questions.
  • Nick was asking about what success looked like in these jobs in 6-12 months and what the metrics were to demonstrate somoene in the role was doing a good job. He asked questions about the hiring manager and the company.
  • It was a good conversation. Since the hiring manager recommended Nick speak to a member of the team, Nick was ok with proceeding to that step next.
  • At this point Nick still had not applied for a job at this company. Keep that in mind.
• The next step was what we might call a team member screening.
  • The team member Nick spoke to was doing the second open position mentioned above (the community facing evangelist type role).
  • Nick was able to ask a number of questions about what this person did day to day, what drew him to it, what he likes about the company, and how he thought about his career.
  • It was a great conversation, and Nick really enjoyed meeting this person.
  • After that conversation was over, Nick didn’t really know what would happen next. He still had not applied for anything.
  • Then some time passed. Nick was at a community event to give a presentation, and it just so happened the hiring manager Nick had previously spoken to was at this event. Nick received an e-mail from the recruiter that the hiring manager wanted to meet with him in person.
• The next step was meeting with the hiring manager in person at a community event.
  • Nick met with the hiring manager for about an hour that day.
  • The hiring manager asked Nick some questions about how he might explain certain things.
  • Nick asked things like things expected in a regular 1-1, how the manager managed his organization (down and up), perception of a specific business unit inside the company from the perspective of other business units.
  • By the end of the hour, the hiring manager told Nick he wanted to work something out for Nick to come and work for him.
  • Nick didn’t quite know this would be the outcome of the conversation. But he was up front and honest, communicating that he wasn’t sure he was ready to leave VMware.
  • After that first conversation with the hiring manager Nick realized most of his questions were geared toward finding out whether the person on the other end of the phone was a great leader. Nick didn’t write it down as something he needed in a new role, but he learned one of the things he needs is, if given any kind of choice in the matter, to work for a great leader.
    • Nick shared this need with the hiring manager and that he was still trying to figure out if the hiring manager was that next great leader for which Nick wanted to work. Nick did not mean this to be offensive or anything like that.
    • Then the hiring manager did something really interesting which Nick did not expect. The hiring manager called a member of his team at the event and said Nick was going to come talk to her about what she does and what it was like working for the hiring manager. The hiring manager asked Nick to ask this member of the team any questions he wanted.
• Nick met with a member of the team under the hiring manager in person and then via phone call.
  • He was only able to meet with the team member the hiring manager had called for a few minutes in person, but they scheduled a follow up remote discussion for the next week.
  • This team member shared what she did for the company with Nick and how they might work together if Nick got the job / decided to take the job.
  • Nick asked her about the hiring manager. She had worked for him at a previous company and really liked him and his style. Others on her team had worked for this hiring manager at a previous company. The team member shared that the hiring manager was very good at advocating for his team up the chain and keeping them out of internal political battles.
• The recruiter then wanted to know how things went meeting the hiring manager in person.
  • The recruiter told Nick that they would love to make him and offer and were very interested in having him come onboard.
  • At this point Nick was blown away and extremely humbled. He never applied, and they wanted to hire them.
  • Maybe this was a case of letting the job come to you?
  • Nick had to figure out at this point if it was something he really wanted to do. He told the recruiter he still wasn’t sure if he wanted to walk away from VMware after almost 5 years.
  • At this point he told the recruiter he did not want her to make him an offer unless he would strongly consider taking it and asked for some time to decide.
  • Nick thought about it, let his mind wander on it, compared pros and cons, things different about the new role that he liked / did not like, and the overall impact to his family wife and daughter), etc. He needed to take all the things into consideration.
  • Nick mentioned asking your family about pros and cons of a new job is a good idea. Nick’s wife pointed out that his daughter had just started middle school, was still getting used to the structure and requirements of it, and would need his help to adjust and excel. Too much travel could end up being a deterrent to providing the right level of support.
• The last step was an e-mail instead of a call, and it was after Nick had reached a decision.
  • Nick said he did not want them to make him an offer at this time. He decided he was not ready to leave VMware.
  • Thinking back to the Yvette Edwards episodes (Episode 201 and Episode 202), it was not the right time.
  • Nick thanked the people who were involved in the hiring process who had spoken to him and spend time with him. He left the door open, of course. These were all incredible people, and maybe there is some way to work with them in some form or fashion in the future (even if not at the same company). Nick hopes people found it valuable meeting him just as he found it valuable meeting them.
• Lessons learned from this process
  • Nick learned that he needs a great leader, and he thinks that hiring manager was a great leader. It took a little time to figure this out only through asking lots of questions and talking to other members of the team that worked with and for this manager (getting the holistic context).
    • Remember Evan Oldford’s advice from Episode 173 to "find that great manager."
  • Nick was honest and up front about where he was in the process with the hiring team and wasn’t in it to play games.
  • You don’t always know what you might be qualified to do. In this case he was not able to see his own. The recruiters saw it, and the hiring manager and others did too. In this process, it was a blind spot for Nick (seeing the applicable relatable experience).

16:02 – Interview Process # 2 – An Internal Role

• This was a job inside VMware doing something different than what Nick does today (solution engineering).
• In the first process Nick was contacted by someone else. In the second process Nick saw something interesting and decided to take action.
• Remember also that at no point in the first process did Nick have to submit a resume. He had LinkedIn updated and proof of work out there (podcasts, blogs, etc.).
• In this process, somoene posted a job description in some internal chat channels, and Nick happened to see it.
  • Nick knew who the person who posted it was part of some of the same programs internally (like CTOA Ambassadors) and had no issues reaching out to that person to ask some questions.
  • The person who posted the job was part of the team of people doing that job today.
  • Nick asked questions via chat and received some examples of what the job really entailed, communicating that he was thinking about applying.
• Nick wanted to learn even more about the role and had a phone call with a different member of the team (different from the person who posted the job internally) who Nick knew from the CTO Ambassador Program.
  • This person met with Nick after work hours one day, sharing how he got into that role, what it was and was not, what he liked about it, and that it took him a little time to get the job. This person really enjoyed the ability to work on a number of different things.
  • The job in question was a bit of a specialist overlay. Nick is a technical generalist across the VMware portfolio today. The job was a specialist solution engineer in a way but would also involve working closely with teams building early stage products. The focus would be on trying to make those products better and providing education to other teams within the company on product capabilities and the problems these products solve.
  • Like the role from the first process, this one required more of a technical focus and specialty (a common pattern).
  • During the call with this team member, Nick brought up the job level in the posting being 1 level higher than he is today, which means getting the job would be a promotion and lateral move. The team member Nick spoke with was not sure and encouraged him to ask the hiring manager or somoene else to get clarity on whether Nick would even be eligible to apply.
• Nick thought about it a little bit more but wanted to make sure his name was in the hat for the position. And this meant updating the resume. Nick’s was not up to date (5 years old).
  • The good news is Nick was documenting his work along the way. He tries to update his OneNote weekly with some sort of accomplishment even if it’s small, which provides the detail needed to write or rewrite a resume. This is the intent and not something that always happens.
  • If he had not updated the resume in 5 years and had also not been tracking accomplishments it would have been way harder to start from ground zero.
  • The resume updates still required a time commitment. It wasn’t as simple as upload and click.
    • Don’t forget our advice, even if your resume is up to date, to customize the resume for each job application (update experience and skills sections based on job requirements).
  • After updating the resume and tailoring it to the job description and requirements, Nick had a friend inside VMware review the resume and provide some feedback before submitting.
  • Nick went ahead and submitted the updating resume to get his name in the hat.
• Because of the job level discrepancy Nick went ahead and reached out to the recruiter to mention it and ask for a meeting to address questions.
  • The recruiter had a call with Nick for about 30 minutes and had already looked at his resume.
  • The recruiter gave Nick some good feedback on resume structure. He liked the skills section and shared that the role was deeply technical, suggesting Nick add anything else that might demonstrate that expertise to the resume if he had it. It was extremely kind of the recruiter to provide this feedback.
  • During that conversation, the recruiter shared a compensation range for the position and some idea of what the hiring process might be like (a couple of team member interviews, a stakeholder panel, call with the hiring manager, and maybe one more interview).
  • In light of this comment, Nick made a couple of additional resume tweaks and send the updated resume to the recruiter which was then passed on to the hiring team.
• After some time passed, Nick received an e-mail from the recruiter about scheduling 2 interviews with members of the hiring team.
  • Nick was given some background on the expectations for each interview and guidance on what to be prepared to discuss.
  • One of the interviews was more demonstrating company values and technical expertise.
  • The other interview was more about technical fit and team fit.
  • The recruiter encouraged Nick to reach out if he had additional questions about the expectations of these interviews, and Nick did ask some clarifying questions to ensure he would be prepared.
  • To prepare, Nick spent time thinking about the stories he wanted to share which fit the expectation for the discussions.
    • He made notes to help prepare himself and continued to review them before the interviews.
    • He reviewed the job description again.
    • He made sure to review his resume.
    • Nick wanted to ensure he prepared stories that were most relevant, most impactful, and can best answer the questions people have.
• Team member screen # 1
  • Nick had never met the interviewer before this discussion.
  • These discussions usually start with the interviewer asking some questions of the candidate. Nick was asked about what he does today and what made him interested in the role.
  • This team member had come to the company through an acquisition, and Nick was able to learn more about her career during the discussion.
  • Nick shared technologies he had been talking about most with his customers to solve their biggest challenges.
  • It was a very good conversation, and Nick appreciated the time. The interviewer let him know if he had questions about the role or the team he could contact her to ask.
  • Keep in mind…if somoene leaves the door open to ask questions after the fact, don’t abuse that privilege. Save questions about your status in the hiring process for the recruiter. Sending questions about the role, the team, or the company as a follow up with an interviewer should be ok.
  • Nick remembers getting asked questions about how he would convince product teams to do something without role power. This goes back to the discussions with David Babbitt about influence without role power.
    • Check out Episode 196 specifically for more details and Episode 195 and Episode 197 to hear David’s full story.
• Team member screen # 2 happened within a few days of the first one.
  • This was with a different team member (another Nick had never met).
  • Nick reviewed the job description and his resume but made some different notes for this interview since expectations were a little different.
  • The first time this interview happened, Nick’s interviewer never showed up (which he had never experienced).
    • After about 10 minutes, Nick reached out to the interview to see if the time still worked and to see it that person was ok.
    • Eventually the interview time slot had come and gone. Nick reached out to the recruiter to let them know the interviewer never showed up.
    • The interviewer did message Nick back stating he was ok and had unfortunately missed the meeting. So the interview was rescheduled.
  • Just like the first interview, this was another good conversation. The interviewer had questions for Nick, of course, but did something Nick did not expect. After asking a few questions, the interviewer asked "is there anything you would like to share with me?"
  • This question has some interesting impacts. The interviewer was telling Nick that he was ready to listen to whatever he wanted to share. Also, it put the onus on Nick to share the highest priority items / most impactful items for this discussion and articulate them well. (all based on what the interviewer was looking to hear).
  • Nick had notes and was prepared to share stories, but the way this was asked suddenly made it challenging to answer in the moment. Nick loves what the interviewer did here and will probably never forget it.
  • The interviewer had more questions of Nick after this and Nick had time to ask questions of the interviewer. The discussion even went past the 30 minute time limit.
• After both interviews were over, some time passed. The recruiter got back to Nick and said the hiring team decided to go with a different candidate this time.
  • The recruiter did send some good feedback from those who had interviewed Nick during the process, which he was grateful to receive.
  • The feedback was positive, the team liked Nick, and they would encourage me to apply for open positions on this team in the future.
• Reflecting on this interview process
  • Of course when things don’t work out on something you were excited about, you can get bummed. But Nick has a job he really likes. It just so happened that the role he applied for seemed a bit more interesting at the time. It was a chance to do something different, and he didn’t get it.
  • Taking a process over outcomes mindset here (from Episode 19)…
    • Nick feels like he did decent during the interviews and might rate himself a B+ overall.
    • He definitely was not ready for the question in the second interview and feels we always wish we could do better.
    • He received feedback from the recruiter and from the two people who had interviewed him.
    • In the second interview Nick was asked what his technical specialty is. Nick is a technical generalist today in what he does and was also a generalist during his time in systems administration. He finds it very hard to answer that question. Nick thinks his specialty may lie in being a generalist much like Stephanie Wong shared in Episode 178. After looking at the content Nick had put on his blog, he was able to suggest what his specialty is and send it to the interviewer as a follow up. It’s still a hard question to answer.
• Lessons learned
  • Nick made some great connections inside the company through this process and feels he has built rapport with people who he could contact for help if need be. The interview process can build your personal network.
  • Nick feels moving from generalist to specialist can be tough. Despite being a generalist inside VMware today some might consider that a specialty compared to being a systems administrator. Nick was applying for something that was more of a specialty within the VMware product set.
  • When applying for a specialized role, really think about things that show evidence of this specialty (proof of work, projects you have worked on, heavy interest and attention to it, etc.).
  • If we reflect on it, there are probably areas where we naturally spend more time in than others (even the generalist). Nick does not think he had taken enough time to reflect on this.
  • Don’t wait until you want to apply for a job to update your resume. Nick owns the fact that he had to do this before he could apply. Oops.
  • The right time to apply for something that looks really exciting is right now. Even a conversation to learn more about something does not mean you have agreed to take the job.
    • If it’s exciting enough to you it will be a priority.

31:48 – Resources Nick Leveraged

• The second process Nick went through was beginning as the first one was nearing the end (a little overlap).

• Through all of this Nick continued his morning pages practice. It sort of became an evening pages routine to dump out his brain.

• Nick listened to a number of episodes of [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) with Liz Bronson and Kat Troyer in addition to past episodes from the Nerd Journey catalogue.

• Nick had a lot of conversations with John White about this process.

• Nick spoke to community members, reaching out to people who had worked at the external company to pick their brains.

• Nick spoke with mentors within VMware and beyond. Dale McKay has been mentoring Nick for a while now and shared this thought:

  • The opportunities did sound exciting (both of them), but he encouraged Nick to think about what would happen if neither one worked out.
  • Dale encouraged Nick to pay very close attention to his emotions, how he was feeling about the work he does in his current role to be on guard against feelings of bitterness and cynicism (which would 100% lead to a lack of engagement and leaving the company). Nick was encouraged to be mindful and watchful of these thoughts and feelings and found himself in this exact situation (neither job worked out).
  • Nick doesn’t feel like at any point he got bitter or felt entitled to something. He decided to focus effort in other areas. He didn’t have to jump right on chasing something new but understood there were now some options that maybe he had not considered.
  • It sounds like we might need an episode 100% dedicated to mentors!

• It’s likely a consideration point during these processes on if you tell your boss about it and when you tell your boss.

  • Nick has a good relationship with his boss and told him about both job opportunities.
  • Nick was encouraged to really think about what excited him about the jobs in question and especially in the first case, since he didn’t apply, what kept him wanting to learn more information.
  • The boss would support whatever Nick needed to do.

• If you are going to go through interview processes like this, make sure you don’t have one foot out the door already!

  • Assuming you have a job while going through the interview process, continue to do your job well. If you are applying for a job internally and not doing a good job in your current role, it probably will not be looked upon kindly (unless you’re in some kind of severe mismatch situation where you cannot succeed).
  • You can still chase something new without giving up on the role you’re in. You can still ensure you’re doing a great job in your daily work.

• Nick had a number of conversations with his wife about all this. She saw some things he could not see and had a different perspective on it all.

• There was a lot of prayer and soul searching with Nick wondering about whether these roles were right for him or not right for him (probably thinking way too much about both jobs).

• For anyone out there that helped Nick in some way during this process who was not mentioned by name, you know who you are. He really appreciates you taking the time!

• If this conversation has been helpful, please go out and rate the show 5 stars and share it with someone!

Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.