Post-Edit Show Notes Welcome to episode 213 of the Nerd Journey Podcast [@NerdJourney]! We’re John White (@vJourneyman) and Nick Korte (@NetworkNerd_), two Pre-Sales Technical Engineers who are hoping to bring you the IT career advice that we wish we’d been given earlier in our careers. In today’s episode we share part 2 of a discussion with Leah White. We’ll hear the story of what prompted Leah to make a job change after losing an advocate and how the transition has been, address layoffs and resume gaps, explore the idea of recruiters as advocates for candidates, and discuss the current job market.

Original Recording Date: 01-24-2023

Leah White is a sourcing recruiter for Veeam who works on roles across the US and Canada identified as needing additional recruitment support. In case you missed it, part 1 of our discussion with Leah can be found in Episode 212.

Topics – Following the Lead, Making an Impact, Document Accomplishments, Reasons for a Job Change and a Niche Market, Trust in Recruiters, Layoffs and Parting Thoughts

3:24 – Following the Lead

• At Accenture Leah was really in her comfort zone and enjoyed the work she did. Even as a remote employee, she did not feel like she was on an island but rather that she was very engaged with peers across the country.
• It was very comfortable until the day Leah found out her amazing lead at Accenture (Jennifer) was leaving the company.
  • It was at this point in time Leah realized how important it was for her to have an advocate. Jennifer would constantly raise her hand for sourcing, and Leah always felt like a valued employee even though she was a contractor.
  • When Jennifer left there was a void. Leah knew she didn’t have an advocate and became unsure whether people would still see her value.
  • "Even though the environment hadn’t really changed, I didn’t feel as comfortable as I had been." – Leah White, describing her feelings after departure of an advocate
  • After spending a few days being a bit depressed at this loss Leah told herself she needed to be open. She had not been looking for other roles because she had been so comfortable. This is when Leah began to look.
• Leah found that Jennifer had gone to Veeam, and at the time Leah had never heard of them (which she found odd since it was part of a solution package Accenture consultants offered).
  • After Leah did a little research on Veeam as a company she found them to be a great company with industry leading solutions and over 30 countries. From what Leah saw they had some amazing initiatives for women.
  • Leah began to talk to others within Veeam and was able to learn about the ERGs (Employee Resource Groups). These are groups within the organization founded by employees to promote things like inclusion and community activities for example.
  • When people say the culture somewhere is great you tend to wonder how much of that is talk and how much is real. Even if Leah didn’t trust everything she heard about the culture automatically, she trusted her former lead and her decision making. Leah says she was an amazing lead. Because Leah did not believe her lead would make a move to another company without some due diligence, it prompted Leah to do more investigation on Veeam.
• Leah can say she was not disappointed transitioning to Veeam.
  • When she started she was of course looking around to see if it was going to be what she thought. There was a large virtual event in which Leah saw a woman as one of the keynote speakers. This woman had blue hair, black lipstick, and was dressed casually standing next to a man in a 3-piece suit. Seeing this made Leah think, "this is culture. This is really diversity."
    • This experience was eye opening for Leah. She was able to really see the women’s initiatives.
      • "It wasn’t just talk. It was real." – Leah White
  • In every other organization where Leah has worked there was a feeling of not being able to be 100% herself. She would wonder what she should look like when presenting herself on behalf of the company.
  • Leah has completely embraced the culture and the ERGs and can use this when communicating with candidates. She isn’t just talking fluff but rather can speak to her experiences. It’s so important to a candidate conversation to get this kind of perspective.
• The interest in looking at Veeam was because that’s where her lead went. Leah had planned to look at multiple options no matter what.
  • Since she knew nothing about Veeam this made her take a look at the company.
  • As Leah looked at other opportunities, they didn’t stack up to what Veeam was offering.

8:48 – Making an Impact

• Leah moved from a publicly traded company in Accenture to a privately held company in Veeam.
  • There overall structure of the two companies was different.
  • While Leah did a lot of great things during her time at Accenture, she feels there is more value add to her impact at Veeam.
  • Sourcing was new to Veeam, and it was a new investment they decided to make when Leah came onboard. She feels like she is making more of an impact as a result.
  • When you are evaluating your opportunities, get a feel for what it is you are looking to achieve. Then consider whether you can do that within the setting of the company with the open opportunity.
  • As Leah looked for that next opportunity after Accenture, she wanted to find something that would allow her to make more of a difference, something that would allow her to be a difference maker.
  • Leah had a co-worker who, speaking about a recent candidate interview, said she thought the candidate could step into the role but was not sure the candidate could make a difference. The candidate had not shared anything in previous discussions that indicated they were wanting to make a difference. When Leah’s co-worker asked this candidate what he wanted to do, there was no real answer about what the person really wanted to accomplish.
  • Leah went into her job search looking to make a difference and felt she would make a greater impact at Veeam versus some of the other options.
• Nick suggests getting in on a role that was new to the organization aligns with the pattern of seeking flexibility that John pointed out earlier.
  • Leah says yes and would add opportunity to make an impact. When speaking to a candidate about a new role at the organization, Leah calls that out to the candidate. It’s not a backfill, not something the company has had before, and is something the candidate has the chance to shape / put a hand print on.
    • A role being new means they likely would not necessarily keep it as it is written on paper. The candidate may come in, make a huge impact, and the company then realizes they found exactly what they were looking for even though they did not realize it.
• Nick says the ability to make an impact gives purpose to our work. But it is likely we do not think enough about this when we go looking for opportunities (communicating the purpose we want in our work).
  • As an example, when doing a technical project you need to be able to state the business outcome. When you go and do technical work, think about the outcome this will make on the company and the outcome for yourself. If those align maybe it’s a good fit, sort of like candidate career alignment.
  • Leah says it is so important as a recruiter to get a clear idea of what the candidate truly wants to do. A recruiter can then go and see what a typical career pathway is for a specific role.
  • If a candidate wants to be in a specific spot in 5 years and a certain role is not a way to get them there, it enables an open conversation with the recruiter about something being the right fit / right opportunity. The candidate is likely going to leave the company if taking a role is not in line with what they want to eventually be doing.
  • Leah says candidates have not often thought of this kind of thing. Recruiters can raise this question in a thoughtful way, and sometimes the candidate will bow out as a result. But it is the right thing for the company making the investment and the right thing for the candidate.
• What does Leah wish she would have known going into a role that was new to the organization (i.e. sourcing at Veeam) that she would advise others keep in mind? Is there a way to figure out how serious an organization is about this new role and what would happen to the people in it if it doesn’t work out (i.e. fired / moved to other positions, etc.)?
  • Leah was worried about those same things. She didn’t want to go somewhere that had only temporary opportunities. She had many questions.
  • Leah wanted to know what the goal was for this new department and what else had been brought to the table recently. She wanted to know what other new initiatives have happened.
  • Leah learned sourcing was not the only new area of the organization recently created. There were other areas where they had brought in talent and put in leadership for within Veeam (a sign of clear investment).
  • Leah suggests if you’re in this situation look at the choices company leadership is making.
  • As of this recording Veeam has not had layoffs like many other companies in the technology industry. Leah feels this is a reflection of good leadership, decision making, planning, and responsible growth.
  • If you can ask about those initiatives and get some information about company decision making, you have a pretty clear forecast of what you can look forward to in working at a company.
  • John says these things can be difficult to tease out in the interview process, and we would need to keep them in mind as we think of questions which need to be asked. For example…
    • What do you see as the organization’s commitment to this type of role?
    • Do you think it’s long term or short term?
    • Have you experienced them changing their mind about this kind of investment in the past?
  • Leah says ask the hiring manager / person interviewing you what their next initiatives are and their personal goals. It can give you a little bit of a baseline for your opportunity.

17:48 – Document Accomplishments

• In a time of many layoffs across various industries, people find themselves on the market looking for jobs and are not experts in looking for new jobs. People don’t want to think about having to change jobs and do not really have a process.
• We’ve advocated on the show that perhaps people should take 2 interviews per year even if you aren’t thinking about changing your job.
• John suspects maybe Leah has run into people who have not thought about changing and as a result might be coming from more of a cold start position. What are the types of things people should "keep warm" so that in the event they find themselves recruited / sourced or maybe in a reduction of force (RIF) scenario?
  • Leah advises us to keep notation of our accomplishments. When we work on so many projects we forget the great things we were a part of over time.
  • Leah is frequently speaking to people who do not have a resume handy because she has sought them out. She has seen a blurb of who they are on LinkedIn (which never on its own tells the whole story).
    • When Leah is speaking with people she is trying to learn more about them and will often times ask for a resume to share with her team internally. Many times people do not have one handy, which is fair. In the event you don’t it is great to have the documentation of your work to refer to for making the edits to your resume.
    • You want to have the numbers available for a conversation if and when needed (which comes from documenting the work). John says it is handy to have even when not looking for a new job because you may want a raise or to look for an internal role at your company that opens up. People don’t get huge raises without justification. You need a record of accomplishments.
    • Leadership just is not going to know all of the great things you’re doing. How many things will they be tracking or in charge of, for example?
    • Keeping a record of your achievements allows you to be accountable and responsible for what you have achieved. You can ask yourself if you’ve done enough, if you have been accountable enough, and whether you need to brush up in a few areas.
    • "Am I bringing all I can to the table? Am I making sure that I’m going to have longevity here if I’d like to have it?" – Leah White on the accountability of tracking your accomplishments
  • We may not remember what we’ve done but at the same time have an unreasonable expectation that our manager or skip-level who has 10 to 100 more people under them than we do should remember. That doesn’t make any sense but may also speak to people not quite understanding how managerial jobs work.

22:16 – Reasons for a Job Change and a Niche Market

• In Leah’s experience, the motivations for people to make a job change really varies.
  • Some people are a little bit bored or lacking challenge in what they do. They may have been doing the same thing for a long time and really thought they would have received a promotion by now (and no longer feel as excited or as valued in that role).
  • There are some who feel they should have already moved forward in their career and are now wondering if they will ever get the opportunity to do so.
  • Leah has seen people who no longer enjoy the people they work with perhaps due to changes in personnel, corporate restructuring, or maybe even an acquisition. Sometimes the comfort is no longer there.
  • In general folks may be a little burned out and are looking for a change.
  • One of the more recent things Leah has seen has been compatibility with a person’s lifestyle. Companies have moved from remote work to back in office in some cases. And it could be a person’s situation has changed to where they cannot work with that change in place (i.e. the travel requirements).
  • There are many reasons people move around today, but Leah cautions us to be careful of that movement. Recruiters are very keen on stability. It is really a red flag if somoene is moving to a different organization every year or every 2 years. The investment a company makes in you will be perceived to last only a short time.
  • Make sure the brand you are building shows who you are. You want to make sure that you look good, that you look professional, and that you are really going to be somewhere and do your best. This will be a huge reflection of who you are to a recruiter.
  • Nick says even if you bow out of a hiring process or have to turn something down you still want that positive brand reflection.
  • Leah says the community is small. It’s not what it used to be where you turn in a page of referrals. Referrals are via word of mouth these days. Somoene knows somoene.
  • "You need to know that you are your brand, and your brand needs to stay positive." – Leah White
• On the flip side, it’s really hard to move away from happy.
  • We often say not to break happy or move away from happy.
  • If Leah reaches out to someone and that person loves the culture where they work, they love the people they work with, they feel valued, and ty feel they are really on a trajectory upward it’s hard to get somoene to walk away and move to a new place (potentially risking happy by moving).
  • The above is probably the number one reason Leah is seeing for people not taking a new opportunity.
• John keeps hearing the job market is incredible and unemployment is super low. People still need to compete for jobs, but at the same time certain organizations are cutting huge amounts of people. There is a perception that one might be competing with many people for those opportunities. Is it a job seeker’s market or an employer’s market or not that simple?
  • Leah says what complicates things are the particular roles. She thinks it depends on what type of professional you are.
  • If you are a niche professional with a very in-demand and technical skillset, you have options and will probably always have those options.
  • If your skillset is a bit more general or there are many folks who can offer the same skillset you have, you are going to be competing with more people. That is the way it is going to be.
  • At Veeam just like at many other organizations, they are still hiring but only in certain areas. And it isn’t necessarily in the areas where skillsets are more general.
  • You as a candidate want to ensure your skillset is very valuable. If there are extra projects or classes you can participate in to grow your skillset at your organization, you need to do that to give yourself a bit more job stability and be part of that niche market.
  • There are jobs out there, but the job marketplace is much more dicey than it was a year or two ago.
  • "Got it…so there’s not one job market. It’s a series of micro markets." – John White
  • There is a lesson here. As we are employed, we should work to grow our specialized skillsets that are in demand and can keep us employed (or at least in high demand if we suddenly need to change).
  • For example, John has a friend whose spouse went to medical school across the country. So one needs to find a job as part of this, but if the person has highly in demand skills maybe that’s not such a big deal.
  • Leah says the highly in-demand skills often times does not have the same location restrictions or parameters. The more niche someone is the more open employers are to employ that person.
  • Leah says we should be very aware of what we bring to the table and cannot ever get comfortable to the point where you stop raising your hand and stop learning. You have to be willing to grow.

30:05 – Trust in Recruiters

• Nick thinks there is a certain connotation and a wondering of how much we should / can trust recruiters.
  • Leah says this is fair. When we speak with people on the other end of a phone call we don’t know what their intentions are or what their end goal is. It’s very fair to be hesitant on what you share.
  • If there are any non-negotiables for you, it is in your best interest to share those in advance to avoid wasting anyone’s time.
    • For example, if you know that 50% travel is not going to work for you, don’t be afraid to come out of the gate and ask about what the travel situation is going to look like.
    • If you’ve recently received a compensation increase, be comfortable bringing this up. You don’t need to be going through multiple rounds of a hiring process in hopes that everything is going to align with what you’re wanting.
    • It’s fair for you to ask your questions and get the information you need early, in advance.
    • It’s ok to be confident in stating what your needs are (the non-negotiables). You don’t have to provide a bunch of reason why they are your needs.
    • "If you are confident in what you have to offer and if you’re the best candidate for that role, be confident in asking those questions and making those non-negotiables known up front.
  • Nick says this can help the recruiter qualify you in or out of a role. For example, if the compensation you were looking to get was never something the company would offer for a specific role, it’s probably better not to continue talking about that role.
  • Leah says there is also the job leveling piece to consider. Career titles are different from one organization to another.
    • If you’re a consultant at a specific company, that same role at another company may mean a different job level and a different pay level.
    • A recruiter may have a different idea of who you are, what you do, and what you earn. Telling the recruiter what you are looking for can help you get on the same page from the beginning so expectations are where they need to be on both ends.
  • John says during his experience at Google most people did not understand that the leveling conversation begins the first time a candidate speaks with a recruiter.
    • People didn’t realize that judgement was being unofficially made and being solidified as conversations during the hiring process continued.
    • As you went further in the process the more people are locked into judgements made to that point.
    • John says maybe we should have a candid conversation with a recruiter to share what our job level has been and some of the projects we have worked on both in scope and complexity as well as dollar impact. Maybe that means you’re expecting a certain job level and compensation, and you can ask if you’re on the same page with the recruiter.
    • Leah tells us the recruiter may have done a little research on who you are (through LinkedIn or a referral) and have an idea of your level based on a role they are looking to fill. During a conversation with you they can come to understand you are actually more senior than the role they have to offer and can keep you in mind for a more senior role when one opens.
    • Unless you really share all the details about what you’ve done and what you’re looking for, you may close the door on opportunities you may have been brought in the future because the recruiter does not have a clear understanding of who you are.
    • The level at which you come into an organization is key because it is also a basis for your performance growth. If you said all the right things and come in at a level that’s too high, you might not get that performance bump you had been expecting. Leah recommends we be fair to ourselves and come in at the right level so we can achieve the growth we want.
    • "You don’t want to make the targets. You want to make and surpass the targets. So it’s important that everyone has a clear picture of the level." – Leah White, on coming into an organization at the right level.
    • This is easier in some roles because of tests during the hiring process, but in other roles it is not as easily determined. It is important to have that conversation about what you’ve done and what you’re looking to do to ensure everyone is on the same page about the level.

37:08 – Layoffs and Parting Thoughts

• With layoffs in the tech industry top of mind right now, how should someone approach this with recruiters if they have been affected?

  • There is no shame in telling someone you were let go according to Leah (and she shared a story about it earlier).
  • You want to be very transparent about any gaps on your employment record. If you were let go a couple of months ago, make that known. Recruiters are usually trying to determine what is going on, why you left your previous employer, and what you’re up to now.
  • Sharing that you were let go but also what you did to be successful in your role before being let go is very helpful to a recruiter.
  • Leah says recruiters are likely looking at COVID with a grain of salt in many ways because things were a little weird during that time.
  • If you worked a contract position, for example, but the length of the contract where it is visible to highlight shorter stints in specific roles. The recruiter can then believe (due to your transparency) that you are going to be an invested professional in the future if selected.
  • John says if you looked at someone’s resume during the 2008 / 2009 time period and saw some gaps it would be easy to understand because of the housing market collapse and other economic problems.
  • Leah often finds herself giving similar advice to mothers who have gaps because they had a child and have been out of industry.
  • "It can’t be something we feel like we need to hide. That’s your life. That happened in your life. That was your decision, and now you’re back in the industry looking for a new role." – Leah White speaking to gaps in resumes
  • We can share thst we have a resume gap because we were taking care of a sick parent, for example. This lets a recruiter know this was a personal decision and thst you were not let go due to poor performance and couldn’t find a job, etc. In just seeing a gap like that on a resume, a recruiter has no idea why you were not working.
  • Remember the recruiter can be your advocate. They are having conversations with the hiring manager and the team about candidates.
  • "We’re the ones that met you and that have a feel for you being great for a specific team." – Leah White on recruiters as advocates
  • The recruiter is passing your resume along to people who have not had a conversation with you, and the recruiter can easily speak to gaps in your resume and the reasons for those gaps (assuming you have shared it with a recruiter).

• We discussed the reasons for people changing jobs such as

  • You’re in position and are not being challenged
  • There’s been a lack of promotion
  • You don’t enjoy the lifestyle any longer
  • Or you don’t enjoy the people you work with any longer

• Even if you’re happy in your role, you need to look at your skillset on a consistent basis to see if you’re developing the specialized, in-demand skills which will keep you employed and in demand if you’re suddenly back on the market (i.e. job loss).

  • Leah tells us this lets you think about whether you should be raising your hand more.
  • It puts the onus on each of us. Am I not receiving a promotion because I haven’t been raising my hand and trying to work outside of what my current role is? The initiative really brings you into consideration when there opportunities arise internally at your current employer.

• One of the reasons people decide to stay at an organization is because they enjoy their co-workers. Make sure you’re a part of that. Make sure you’re one of those people that helps people stay at an organization. This helps you and it helps the rest of your organization.

  • If you can be that mentor or that teammate, that person who helps people smile more, the person who coordinates that virtual party or congratulatory message / gift to someone…then you’re that great person who helps those other people you so enjoy working with stay.
  • Doing this helps you and the people around you.
  • We own the culture on our teams. We cannot own the culture organization wide, but we do own it for our teams.
  • "We model the culture that we’re looking for, right?" – John White

• Feel free to reach out to Leah on LinkedIn. She is connected to a pretty diverse set of people across industries and backgrounds and is always happy to answer a question or point you to someone in her network who has more answers.

  • Grow your network, and stay engaged with people. If you come across something you feel would be helpful to somoene else, share it with that person whether career related or personal.

• Mentioned in the outro:

  • We should have asked to get more detail on the unique perspective of a recruiter doing job seeking.
  • We need to see leadership model culture. If we don’t see leaders exhibit company values, that could be a red flag.
  • Another question we should have asked was about advisability of following a leader to a new company, especially more than once. If you’re out there and have done this we would love to hear from you!
    • Nick is reminded of Evan Oldford’s advice about finding that great manager from Episode 173. See also Episode 172 featuring Evan and a story about his move to a different company (recruited by his former manager).
  • Nick doesn’t remember talking to other guests in regard to sniff testing a role that is new to an organization as a way to determine if you should take it. The one exception may be Tom Delicati’s story back in Episode 13 of essentially creating his own position at a company.
  • John mentions the advice on documenting your work is wise to use for a promotion if you stay at a company but also if you choose to leave (helps with building the resume for that next role). Nick recommends keeping this info somewhere not controlled by corporate access policies as a backup (so you have it in the event you are laid off and access terminated).
  • What if we tried to assume positive intent when working with recruiters unless proven otherwise? Recruiters can be our advocate.
  • Maybe recruiters are doing a personnel sizing exercise in much the same way we would size / plan an enterprise technology roll out (licenses, new hardware, subscription costs, etc.). You cannot plan and budget effectively if you don’t have a feel for the overall size of a project like this, and it is much the same with candidates and recruiters (i.e. can we afford this candidate, etc.).
  • We are going to have to collect our questions (and yours) for when we have Leah back on the show sometime.

Contact us if you need help on the journey, and be sure to check out the Nerd Journey Podcast Knowledge Graph.